What Makes It Pro ?

[majikboxman]

Sicari mentioned this in another post 

**... ... ... shooting with a professional camera not being alowed... ... ... **

Instead of mentioning no pro cameras allowed, it should read *we reserve the right to not let anyone we don't like take pictures* Or  *We reserve the right not to let anyone we think can take a beter picture then we can to photograph the event*

A person that has never had a cam before goes out and buys a 1D.  Said person goes to photo an event and stands directly next to a guy from a newspaper that's shooting though a 40D.  Who's more professional ?  The guy with the nicer cam or the guy that does it for a living ?

What makes a pro camera ?  Any dslr ?  Do you hae to have the highest end cam body & lens or does it just need to look nice ? 

[Welsh Wench]

Maybe it is what you intend to do with the pictures afterwards that determines it?

A person can have an expensive camera and use his pictures for personal use and not-for-profit. Like pictures of friends and family.

But if he takes the pictures and intends to make money on them, maybe that is the problem. Because then it becomes a viable means of income.

I don't know too much about it but that is my take on it.
But it shouldn't really matter if you make money or don't, does it?
I mean, you paid your ticket and the patrons/cast are in a public place.
So...it's like free air space, yes?

But like I said, I am giving a layman/wench's view on it.

I almost said lay-wench....
I guess that would be a wenchmouth, though. 

[Jon Foster]

It's up to how "somebody" feels on any given day I guess... For the most part professional photographers are those who use photography as a way to make a living. They take pictures for money.

I take pictures for the fun of it and to make money. It just depends on whats going on and why or where I'm taking pictures. So am I a pro or not? I use an older DSLR that I would in no way consider a professional camera. Does it look like one? Sure to somebody that doesn't know any better. That's why I got nailed at the Michigan festival. The filming company (of all people) told security I was using a pro camera and I couldn't take pictures with it anywhere near them or pointing in their direction. So they approached me accordingly and we exchanged words for several minutes (at least that's the short story).

Photography, photographers, pro and amateur are getting hassled more and more every day even though there are laws that protect what they do and where they do it. Of course people think they know what's right or what they feel is right and try to push it on others. Some times they are correct but other times they are not. The Michigan festival for example had very large signs at the festival entrance stating that by entering the grounds you gave permission to be photographed/video taped/filmed and were giving consent for those mediums to be used for any purpose etc. So when the "film" company says no pro pictures because they are, well, them, then the same rules must apply to them as well. So basically anyone who was filmed by them should be able to have that footage cut from the film right? Hey, fair is fair.

So who are the pro's and what makes them a pro? This is a discussion that becomes a very heated debate on every photography forum I know of...

And for those who would like to know what their rights really are, you could hire an attorney or buy some books to get a rough idea of what's what. You can also check out the link below for a quick guide of the general rules and laws in the U.S. (there is a U.K. version there as well and some info for Aussie's).

http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

Jon.

[AbleArcher]

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[Sicari]

What upsets me is just because I have money invested in my gear you are now going to limit me? I can shoot a 200mm lens. What they do not realize is somebody shooting a point and shoot with 12x zoom my be getting more distance than I am.

[DeadBishop]

There is no logic behind that kind of statement because the equipment gives no indication of what your profession actually is.  Like what many have said already, you don't need an expensive, top of the line piece of equipment to be a pro.  That's like saying just because I own a $12,000 set of golf clubs means I'm a pro golfer.

I know of many wealthy people who have bought top of the line equipment just because they could and still don't know the lens cap from their @$$.  Conversely, I met a professional wedding photographer who got paid $9500 for a wedding and shot it with a Holga.

The question of "what makes someone a professional" is easy to answer.  A "professional" is anyone who makes the majority of their income from the field they work in.  Be it photography, law, medicine, cooking, diving, etc.  Many people confuse the fact that just because you own a pice of expensive equipment automatically puts you in the professional category.

In the situation of where someone says "you can't shoot here because you're a professional", you could easily say you're just an amateur with nice equipment.  But that doesn't always work either.  Sometimes even if your argument is valid, you may still lose the argument.  I got kicked out of a museum because my equipment looked too "expensive".  But it was okay that a tour bus full of retirees with point and shoots to be snapping away in the same area.  I argued that point and still got sent packing to the exit.  Just goes to show how little logic there is behind some rules like this.

[SleepyArcher]

I don't claim to be a professional, not even close. I just had someone give me good advice on camera equipment and thats what I got. The only issue that has come up for me is going to pro sporting events. I've gone to the Wild (pro hockey) with Rebel XTI and large lens and had no problem. I have heard that depending on the security personnel you pass by determines if you get in with it or not. I have heard to not even try going to the Vikes (pro football) and I dont know the rules with pro baseball. I dont claim to have the highest end stuff but I got a camera that does the job. I am so still learning the ropes and am grateful at the friends I have to help me out. I never sell anything of mine I just post em on the web and anyone can have at em.

Some places make valid points others do not. A ren fest it shouldnt even be a problem. But I can see at places where there are professional photographers there with "passes" who are paid to shoot the event that some people might get mad because you could "sell" your work be it better or not than theirs and take money away from them. I have always dreamed of taking awesome pics at sports games, esp of players I really like but thats for my own personal use I would never think to sell.

[Malcolm]

Defining a "Professional Camera" is a lot like defining an "Assault Rifle". It has more to do with the idiot behind it than what it really is. Professional photographers use all kinds of cameras from point-and-shoots to DSLR's with mega-telephotos.

On the other hand, who couldn't sell a photo of a Hollywood star on the set of their newest movie? Think about it. There are some industries that make their money by controlling their image(s), and while you are on private property, the management can always ask you to leave.

[DeadBishop]

I don't have a degree, and yet I make 100% of my income from photography.  Those doing their own home money management don't make their income from doing their own books.  Just one of those things that falls into a grey area I guess.  I know people who DO have degrees in photography, and yet have never pursued it.

Many of the legends in photography never had degrees either, and yet there they are, in the history books.  The cool thing about photography is that it is also an art, not just a profession.  You're always learning, and no one has exactly the same style, so there is always that unique touch to a person's work that makes it their signature style. 

[Jon Foster]

No "photography" degree here either. I did go to school for graphic arts but I don't think it counts. Come to think of it, none of my schooling has ever lent itself to anything I've done to make a living. Strange... 

Jon.

[Sicari]

On the other hand, who couldn't sell a photo of a Hollywood star on the set of their newest movie? Think about it. There are some industries that make their money by controlling their image(s), and while you are on private property, the management can always ask you to leave.

That is fine. If I happen to be shooting stars at an open event ask me to stop. None of the filming was being done on that day tho. They also had multiple lame excuses for trying to have people stop shooting with big cameras. One of the other photographers I know was told he had been shooting an underage girl and had creeped her out.

Before everybody jumps on this let me explain a few things.
1-he is one of the few non-candid shooters I know
2-he always asks and makes sure he gives a card out
3-his 2 daughters run a booth at MiRF

Security approached him with the accusations. He was stunned and asked who it was. Security started to hem an haw about it. He said he wanted to know so he could apologize to her and if she wanted he would delete the photos as she watched. Suddenly security isn't sure who she is. My friend told him that was fine lets look at my pics and you point her out and I will tell you who she is. Security got redfaced over it and then said he had been told by "someone" but wasn't sure who now. Complete and total B.S.

[Jon Foster]

I try not to be a pain in the weed puller on boards like this but some times I can't help it.

As far as I know (and I do a fair bit of research to protect myself) there are still ZERO laws about taking pictures of minors in public, in the state of Michigan. ZERO. There are also no laws that allow anyone (including the police) to "make" you delete pictures you've taken. ZERO.

There are actually laws that protect photographers, their rights and their intellectual property. Copyright law is a good friend of photographers and other artists of intellectual creations. Copyright law goes into effect the second a photographer snaps the shutter button and creates an image.

Jon.