opinion please - ethics

[Taffy Saltwater]

It's not harsh at all - why should she profit from stealing?

[Lady Nicolette]

I'm with Taffy on this one...Why on earth should YOU not go to Faire because someone else did something wrong?  Nonsense.  It's not harsh to protect yourself from thieves, even if they seem to be friends, or have been in the past.  The only reason you should give her any leeway is if she honestly didn't know that what she did was wrong (in which case she's pretty naive), then she should be told it was wrong and she should step up and offer you the winnings because that's would be doing the right thing.

[majikboxman]

**I don't think I'll go to the faire...**  Go with that thought.  You thought it for a reason. *Let Go Luke... Trust Your Feeling.*

If you might want to drop your friend a hint and are somewhat on edge on how to do it... send her a link to this topic. At least that way... she can see / read points of view that others have and can maybe start to see the light. It kind of takes any one sidedness out of it.  Your friend would also be able to see how you are feeling over the matter.  If it is a real friend that cares, she will see how it is effecting you and make it right.  If it is a friend that don't care... she'll do nothing.  It'll take some confrontation aspects away and let her know how you feel.  If you don't hear back from her after linking her to this page... let the friendship fade away knowing that you made the right steps and took the effort 'if you chose to end the friendship that is'.

*Ex: ... Hey friend, I seen a topic about faire photos and the contest you entered, I think you should read it.*

Watermarks... depends on the phodo program you use.  Photoshop 'and maybe others?'... have a batch type action that'll put it on.

What do you use ? 

[Lady L]

majikboxman,
Maybe you can tell me how to print watermarks on 35mm negatives and prints?
The incident I was talking about took place way back before digital or even the internet existed, hard as that may be to believe now. I always printed my name on the back of the prints, in ink. I still do that.

I also would not give them the negatives, but they kept badgering and hounding me about it. I didn't think it was worth fighting over. Then, when the book came out and my photo was in it, I asked them where they got that photo? They told me it was one of the photos that belonged to the museum. I knew it was mine, but I no longer had the negatives to prove it.

Years later, I asked the new director for the negatives. He said he looked in the backroom, where they were supposed to be stored, but they *gasp* had disappeared! So I knew for sure those were mine, published  in the book.

Small town politics...
I have nothing to do with them anymore.

[Cerarienh]

Maybe a good compromise would be asking the faire to put your name on the photo as well . . . something like "photographer:  Blushing; photo submitted by ______"

[majikboxman]

Lady L,

You'd have to scan them into you computer then put the mark on in your photo software.

[Jon Foster]

I've read most of the responses to your original post...

The main thing to remember here is the fact that you own the image(s) period. US copyright law is very clear on this point. You have copyright protection from the moment you create the image (when you press the shutter button).

If you gave your "friend" permission to use the image on their myspace page, well, that's pretty much all you did. If that person submitted the image to a contest, they broke your agreement of use and can be considered theft. If the contest rules stated that the image becomes the property of the fair etc. Well, your friend is now guilty of theft from two separate parites (the faire and you). Stealing the intellectual property of another person or company holds some steep penalties. Like 5 years in prison and several hundred thousand dollars in fines. Plus any legal fee's the copyright owner has incurred if the work has been submitted/registered to the copyright office. It's basically the same rules that apply to copying your favorite movie or CD of your favorite music group. It's also possible for the faire to go after the person submitting the photo. For example, what if the faire has already used the picture for next years program books or advertising. Who do you think they will go after to recover the costs or reprinting everything? The person who submitted the photo...

I would let your friend know what they have done is not right, not legal and they should make it right immediately. Don't ask for a mug. It means nothing and has no value anyway. Your friend should contact the faire and let them know that the image he/she submitted is the not theirs and they have no legal right to use it. And the true copyright owner is aware of the illegal use of the image and has not approved of it's use in this capacity.

Your friend and the faire can figure out what to do from there. Be it giving you credit for the shot and awarding you fairly or possibly finding another way to compensate you.

You should also register your work with the copyright office. It's very cheap insurance in the event that your work is ever stolen or used in some way against your wishes.

http://www.copyright.gov/

I'm not a lawyer and have no legal background. And it's not a good idea to take legal advise from anyone on a internet forum. But, you should at least check into what can happen if you don't take care of this right now. Call a copyright lawyer if you are not sure.

Jon.

[Blushing]

majikboxman ... I use for Adobe Photoshop 7.0 and Bullseye.

Jon ... thanks for the reply and the link.  I've read up a lot on copyright - way back when I first starting creating things be it written or artistic (including photos).

I value everyone's opinion ... and since something like this never happened to me before, I want to hear what other's thought - if only to make sure I wasn't overreacting or some thing.

[Melkar]

Ouch!  I'm sorry that happened to you!  To quote Max Headroom "With friends like that, who needs enemas?" 

You should take it up with her.  Maybe ask how she'd feel if you took a short story she wrote, submitted it to a journal under your name and won a prize with it.  No mention of her anywhere, what would she feel like and want to do?

The contest rules really should state that the photos have to be submitted by original photographer.  That is probably what the faire intended.  They should have been more thorough in their wording.

Your friend should come clean with the faire herself, to ask them to put your name in the credits as the photographer.

She may say "It's just a picture!" but just because things are digital doesn't make it right to rip them off.  And "fair use" doesn't apply to claiming credit (implied though it may be) as the photographer.   Neither does her "need" for free entry in any way justify this.  There are lots of people who could certainly use some free tickets to faire, particularly now.  It's cheating against the other shooters that were entering fair & square their own work in the contest.

Hopefully she'll "get it".   If she just doesn't get it, it's time to cut your losses.  Friends don't steal.

Watermarking:  If you're using Photoshop 7, you should be able to add a text layer above the background layer (your picture) and in that text layer, choose a font/size/color/etc.. and type "(C) Blushing" and put it wherever in the picture you want, e.g. lower right.  Then do a "Flatten Image" and export it as a JPG.   You can also probably work up a Photoshop Action do it automatically at the touch of a Function key.

Also if you're shooting digital see if your photo editting program allows you to put "Creator" "Address" "Website" type info into the IPTC data in the photo.  [Beware of "save for web" in earlier, prior to Photoshop CS4  versions of photoshop.  The "Save for Web" will strip out the EXIF and IPTC data from the photo.]

Neither of the options above are foolproof.  People with evil intent can bypass both of them rather easily, however by putting your "brand"  on the photo, you're showing your intent to maintain "authorship".

[majikboxman]

Loosing the EXIF and IPTC data might not be a big deal.  I personally rather not share any camerita setting with anyone.  Not to say that my 'or yours or the other guys for that matter' settings are the best 'or even right', but the point being is that... ... ...

You, the photographer, may have taken allot of time and trys / error effort in trying to get those settings.  Why are you going to give that info up freely ?  Really.  When you go to the photo studio/lab to pic up your prints after having your X-mas family pics taken, ask them for a digital disk.  Once you get your disk home, look at it for the EXIF data.  It won't be there.  There's no way they will share that info with you.  EXIF data should be treated like nuclear secrets.  People take a long time to dial that info in, to freely give it up is a HUGE mistake.

Best failsafe way to put your images online without having some meathead take them ?... ?... ?... Make & upload them as a flash photoshow.  Then it's a flash file and not a single document. 


Blushing... ... ...
I wouldn't wait too long before doing whatever cause of action you are planning to do.  Just remember, while your waitng, things could moving forward with your photo in ways you don't realize.

[Lady Renee Buchanan]

my friend (who I've known since junior high school)

Your statement above says a lot to me.  Obviously, you've known each other a long time and have kept the friendship up.

My question to you is, "Is it worth ending a friendship over a couple of mugs?"

Yes, I realize that what she did is wrong.  Since she called you so excited to tell you that the picture won, she must not have thought that she did anything bad.  She screwed up big time, but did you ever make a mistake?  Everyone has, some mistakes are more major than others.

So I would ask myself if she has been a good friend to you over the years, and why the friendship has lasted as long as it did.  If she has done hurtful things to you in the past, then the next question would be why do you want to keep on being friends with her.  If you have enough good reasons, and you want to continue to be friends with her, take the high road and forgive her.  Sure, speak to her nicely and explain how you feel and tell her that if it wasn't that she was your friend, you would view it as stealing your work.  And then ask her to please not do anything like that again.

It's all going to depend on how much you value her friendship and if you want to keep it over what could possibly be a very innocent mistake. 

[jcbanner]

<snip for space>
I would let your friend know what they have done is not right, not legal and they should make it right immediately. Don't ask for a mug. It means nothing and has no value anyway. Your friend should contact the faire and let them know that the image he/she submitted is the not theirs and they have no legal right to use it. And the true copyright owner is aware of the illegal use of the image and has not approved of it's use in this capacity.

Your friend and the faire can figure out what to do from there. Be it giving you credit for the shot and awarding you fairly or possibly finding another way to compensate you.
<snip>

I agree with this. the mugs are trivial, It's credit for the photo that has real value, and that credit belongs to you. 

If this were me, I would talk to my friend about this and talk to the faire as well to work out an agreement.   I would personally agree to let the faire keep the photo listed as first place winner and use as they like as per the entry rules on the conditions that they change the name credit was given to.  I would let my friend keep the tickets, (I'd likely have given them freely if I had been the one to enter the contest) but I would want to share the mugs. it sounded like there were a few, I'd want at least one of them, I don't need the other.

my friend (who I've known since junior high school)

Your statement above says a lot to me.  Obviously, you've known each other a long time and have kept the friendship up.

My question to you is, "Is it worth ending a friendship over a couple of mugs?"

Yes, I realize that what she did is wrong.  Since she called you so excited to tell you that the picture won, she must not have thought that she did anything bad.  She screwed up big time, but did you ever make a mistake?  Everyone has, some mistakes are more major than others.

<snip>

This is also a very valid point, Is this really worth the friendship to you?  Your friend hurt you, and you should talk to her about it, if you don't, you might start to harbor a grudge and that can ruin the friendship. But if shes a good friend otherwise and made a mistake, there's no reason to come down to hard on her with an iron will and demand the mugs.  That is nothing but a lose/lose situation.  Find or work out a way that you can both come out ahead.
 

[jcbanner]

That is nothing but a lose/lose situation.  Find or work out a way that you can both come out ahead.
 

Yay for leadership training, I think I just quoted a seminar!   hope that line isn't copyright 

[majikboxman]

Stay away from the Faire office... it'll only be negative. 

If you do plan on going to their office, find out their rules on photoing in their grounds first.  If there is a photo stipulation in place, don't contact them. 

Think of it this way... If this were a job, how would a situation between 2 co-workers having drama 'lack of better terms' issues be dealt with ?  After dealt with... what are the end results ? 
Now take that a step further... What business do you know of that is going to actually put up with 2 outside 'non-employees' parties making issues over a matter that is part of their business practice ? 

/End my thoughts on the matter.  Keep us infoed on what you did and the results.  Interested in knowing the outcome.

Good Luck.

[Blushing]

Here's the photo ...


Like I said, it really wasn't the best from that particular faire trip.  But apparently it was good enough.

I won't be going to the faire office ... just not worth the potential for trouble there!

I talked to my friend, and she seemed stunned that I was upset over this.  She says she'll give me the tickets she won't be using, but didn't say anything about the mugs.  And I haven't talked to her since.  But she did say I'd see her when I visited ... so we will see.  Part of my reaction was things that had happened in the past, in some ways this was just icing on the cake, whuch is why I actually talked to her about it instead of lettign it slide.  If the friendship ends because of this, I feel sure that it wasn't because of what I did/said ...