At a meeting last night to talk about next years Ren fest and what things we should try to avoid or what we would like to see added, a guild member said to me (because I reference renaissance festivals that I have been to for points of view on things)
Well Renaissance festival performers and Merchants aren't like us (guild members) because we "LIVE" the life and they don't.
What would you say to them?
The context of the conversation was that we had a guild perform some sword fighting for us, since we could not afford performers to do it.
Ask him when the last time he went a year without plumbing was. No one lives that life anymore that doesn't have to.
Faire is about fun. Everyone has their own ways of enjoying it. Hopefully without having to belittle others in the process. Down with faire nazis and elitist morons!!
I feel the same way Grov. I'm trying to come up with a diplomatic way of telling these guild members that this is a Renaissance festival and not a guild run event. Hell the head planner has told them repeatedly, but they won't seem to let it sink in.
I joked with these local TV morning show guys on how some members of these groups can be Garb Nazi's and I think the whole group just discards anything I say with relation to them now.
Thank goodness that Renaissance merchants and performers are NOT like them :)
Some people, whether they are rennies, merchants, SCA, WMA are like this:
http://www.bodhipaksa.com/images/larson.jpg
Say your piece and understand that some people are right all the time-even though it is a statistical impossibility.
That was one of the things that bothered me, out of all the vendors and merchants that were there. The ONLY one's to close up early were those representing a guild. All of the seasoned Renaissance merchants stayed until there just wasn't any point. To me, the guilds ruined the last day by leaving when they did.
I would probably sound like their mother and say, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all!"
This is why I have absolutely no interest in SCA. I've heard about this attitude time and time again, and I've experienced it firsthand. My wife and I stumbled upon an SCA event when we happened to be in garb. When they first saw us, they asked us to sign in and asked us which barony we were with. We said none, whereupon they asked us about our clothing. When we said we had gotten it at a Renaissance faire, it was like we said we were cannibalistic necrophiliacs. All of a sudden we were told about all the inaccuracies in our garb, by someone wearing tennis shoes with theirs. We got to hear all the comments about how some of them go to the local Renaissance faire (MDRF) every five or six years, just to remind themselves "how bad it is". The most frequent comment about faire was "Can you IMAGINE? They do it for PAY!" They then proceeded to virtually beg us to join SCA.
Sorry, no help in coming up with a reply, at least not on the board. None of my suggestions would make it through the profanity filter.
The oddest part with it renren, is that they didn't see that they said anything bad or insulting! They though I was being insulting to them. Heck there was one guild that had 91 people that got in for free and they were getting very upset that I implied that there was no way that all 91 people "worked" to earn their way in. I was asking for "some" of their guild to work as street, and not one of them offered to do it. They acted as if I insulted them.
LOL Will I had heard and dealt with this type of problem from a lot of others before too Will. My fear is that they are going to try and succeed in taking over the city event and the head planner is going to let them, because she thinks we can't do it without them.
Now that I think of it, I don't think this would be a bad idea. If any more of you would like to share your experiences with this type of people, please feel free to share them.
Hmmm, perhaps a statement on how the mission of the faire is to "capture the spirit " of the ren period, and concentrate on having fun?
We're hoping that by bringing the head planner to the AZRF, that she'll see a true ren fest and realize you don't need a guilds help to make the event work.
I don't know what faire or event this involves but I would say to hell with them. They won't do anything but bring the fun level down. Do it without them, happily.
This was the first year of our event in Needles CA called Kingdom by the River, I ended up being the entertainment coordinator for it. The head planner feels we need to try and let some things slide a little till we make a name for ourselves. She feels if we irritate them to much they may pull out on us before that and with the experience they have learned from us, go ahead and run a better event for themselves. I don't see that as even being possible with their attitudes, but she calls the shots.
Quote from: will paisley on November 20, 2009, 11:57:52 AM
This is why I have absolutely no interest in SCA. I've heard about this attitude time and time again, and I've experienced it firsthand. My wife and I stumbled upon an SCA event when we happened to be in garb. When they first saw us, they asked us to sign in and asked us which barony we were with. We said none, whereupon they asked us about our clothing. When we said we had gotten it at a Renaissance faire, it was like we said we were cannibalistic necrophiliacs. All of a sudden we were told about all the inaccuracies in our garb, by someone wearing tennis shoes with theirs. We got to hear all the comments about how some of them go to the local Renaissance faire (MDRF) every five or six years, just to remind themselves "how bad it is". The most frequent comment about faire was "Can you IMAGINE? They do it for PAY!" They then proceeded to virtually beg us to join SCA.
I've had the same situation here on the west coast. SCA - excuse my words - Stupid Crazy weed kickers.
For them to criticize anyone's choice of clothing for events, is ridiculous! I've seen everything from gingham check to gold lamae' for costumes on those people. Yes they have their heads up their you know whats!
For the longest time the SCA refused to allow any kind of pirate persona as they didn't think it fit their medieval theme. I know it took YEARS to finally get those people to admit there were pirates at the time.
Geesh, with the exception of the knights whacking the hell out of each other, the women haven't got a clue on what Medieval dress is. I see lots of Renaissance outfits among them...talk about a time-line issue....
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y287/RumbaRue/character0246.gif)
I'm not sure what "guilds" you're talking about, but Cuthies don't live it.
Also, we're sufficiently organized that you'd better believe that we work at fulfilling event requirements. Those who don't care to aren't accepted back.
We have real lives outside of faire. :)
But we do look forward to faire and come out and play.
Most members must accomplish at least four events a day but many do more. In my case, I pretty much have one event that lasts most of the day. Events include such things as participating in parades. street interaction, performing in street pageants, front gate meet and greet, and, if the guild is part of a show, participating in it. A number of members have ongoing "events" in the yard. These include things ranging from meal preparation to giving crafts demonstrations.
I think we also try to keep the tradition of providing historical education going. This latter may or may not be supported by the event, itself. However, costume approval and training workshops are still mostly the function of the vent. Some guilds such as Court have additional requirements of their own. We have no part in establishing event standards and we'd better not get involved in criticizing the efforts of others. This discourages visitors from attending. As I've said repeatedly in other threads, those who pay at the gate can wear what they want as long as they won't get arrested for it. Internally, the event sets the standards. As long as your costume meets the requirements of the Costume Dept, that's all that's required. Personally, if someone asks me for assistance, I'll generally refer them to someone who could provide the appropriate help.
Event staff sets the standards for participants. I don't nor is it my place to try to enforce them.
I think it's interesting that some of the potential new members who attend the guild kick off meeting aren't seen again when they come to understand what will be required.
It's a lot more than got a costume so here's your gate pass.
I can't speak for SCA members since I've never been one. However, I have several friends who are or have been members. I get the impression that they prefer faire because they encounter less in the way of internal politics.
Wow, can't we all just get along? I'm not saying that against any of the negative SCA comments. You guys had negative experiences, and I'm all about sharing stories good or bad and naming names. I just wish there weren't so many people out there that truly believe they are better than so many others. So if SCA wants to make h/a garb a main priority, then ok and good for them ( I mean that in a non-sarcastic way), but it doesn't make them any better than the pirate wench that shows up with a machine stitched polyester satin skirt that just wants to break away from the reality of everyday life and have some fun. LOL
So, to get back to topic and put in my 2 cents on how I would answer their comment is first of all, not reply in front of the group. Maybe say in front of the group, (if an immediate answer is required) that a private reply might be a better idea than to stir up a potentially hurtful subject/debate. At a later/private time I would first tell them how appreciated and valued their input is, but that the contributions of others are just as valued and that the particular comment came across as superior and insulting to people who are just as willing as they are to help build the faire.
Garb snarks suck.
I've never had any problem with any of the SCA. I did get to go to one of there events once and had a great time. No one said anything bad about my grab. But I've been doing living history and reenacting for years, so I try my best to make sure what I got on, is spot on. However I have run across them who look down there noise at renies, and yes you can pick there garb apart also.
As for me I wold tell them, this is about having fun first and formost. We are all tying to recreate a spot in time that is LONG GONE, lets look at the best of what are groups offer and work off of that, insted of trying to pick each other apart, and driving people away.
This same attitude comes up with Guild members, SCA members, Rennies, Merchants, Performers and Playtrons. It is not restricted to any one group. The Guild and the SCA are not the lone bugabears in this attitude. There is always someone who believes that 'their' group is right and all the other have it wrong. I just walk away and look for more congenial people.
Quote from: Grov on November 20, 2009, 11:10:42 AM
Ask him when the last time he went a year without plumbing was.
Or even a faire without a privy, or toilet paper. How about garb that wasn't made with a sewing machine, or chemical dyes? Merchants may not all have the extent of historical interest that some guild members do, but so what? The merchants and performers make festivals possible. More people go to faires to watch a show, and have a quick shop (even if its all food) then to stand and watch people behind ropes. Not to say guilds don't help make the faire what it is, they do an important part. But everyone involved needs to understand they ALL help make it what it is.
I'm still curious about these references to "Guild" members
Are you talking about the pin wearing guilds such and "Rogues" and "Wenches", or do you mean actual organized guilds such as those out here on the West Coast?
If you wanted to discuss Faire with us "off line" you'd probably be given information about how to become a participant and, if you asked, be given information about how to become a guild member. The logistics of becoming a member are such that once faire has started, you'd have to wait until next year so that you would have met the registration, workshop, and other requirements in order to have a gate pass. That doesn't prevent you from playing with us, but that'd be your choice. We're always recruiting. I can't speak for all guilds about the latter. Some have very specific requirements such as Court. With us, the main requirement is whether you're willing to work. We're frequently just a stepping stone so that folks can get their feet wet and explore other guilds and troupes that might meet their specific interests. We also have such a variety of tasks so that those who aren't yet comfortable with interacting with the public can also be members. We've got someting for just about everyone. :)
Betty, let me clarify some things for you. I was part of a planning committee and the comment about "we live renaissance and others don't" was made in front of the entire committee. I was however a private meeting so any reply to them would have been acceptable, just not probably what they would have wanted to hear. But I like the way you think and it was probably better than any of the one's I've come up with.
DonaCatalina,
Your ideals are nice, but when you are being forced to work together to build a renaissance festival, so the opportunity to walk away and find better associates is not an option here. If I want to help build the event (like I do) then I have no choice but to deal with the attitudes.
Carl,
By guild members I'm talking about the kinds that are like SCA, which I felt was understood when I wrote the title " If an SCA or Guild member were to tell you..." as for joining one. I also kinda though it was understood I did not have a good experience with them regarding a local event, so I would have no interest in joining them. Keep in mind I realize that not all member of these guilds are egotistical, but it's the one's with the ego's that ruin the fun for others.
i thought of joining sca but if they gonna be garb nazi's i dont wanna play and besides all the chapters are too far to drive
Lord Figaro-
Being exclusive is really counter productive. You either chase away potential members or you insult paying customers. In the former, we can always use new members. In the latter, no gate, no playpen. I agree that there is an element of old timers versus newbies. I've been playing for about 30 years and am still considered to be something of a newbie by some. They share memories that I don't. I don't see them as being exclusive since they also understand we need an infusion of new folks in order to keep going. They're a good resource to learn from. Unfortunately, our memorial wall keeps getting additions and some just burn out.
For someone in a guild to treat you as you describe is really stupid on their part and I don't think it's typical. At least it's not in my experience. I can remember getting quite a bit of assistance when we first joined.
Going back to an answer to those folks, as opposed to what I think of the SCA, guilds, etc., since you have to work with them out of necessity, my answer would probably be vague enough not to tick them off, but not get myself upset either.
"Isn't it nice there are so many different options for people, so they can enjoy themselves at whatever their comfort level is?"
And then I'd either walk away or change the subject. Since it's clear that they aren't going to change their thinking, it's not worth it for me to get upset hearing their comments. So I'd take the high road, not plow back into them nastily, and make the decision that whatever they say, I wouldn't let it get to me.
Usually if a behavior or comment is made in public (in front of any number of people above 2), then I believe the reprimand or discipline or response can be made in public ... but I have also found that most people when "called out" tend to get defensive and things can quickly turn south.
That's the only reason I think it would be best in this situation to make the discussion private (just between you and the comment maker), because that is your best chance to help this person realize the hurtfulness of their comments, and help them form a more permanent change in their behavior. (Yes, sometimes even adults need to grow up by discipline.) It is possible that they don't care about hurting other's feelings, but they should care about hurting the volunteer pool (or work crew) for your faire, and for that reason alone they should be more careful in how they phrase their comments. Even paid personel will leave if there is no appreciation and their efforts are insulted.
It is not easy to "be the boss", the leader of a group, the manager ... I'm not in your area, so will probably not get the opportunity to attend your faire, but for all the people who do get to - thank you for making it happen and having to spend your time and emotional energy on cr*p like this!
Well, I think we'll all agree that there will always be bad apples in every bunch and I will definately state that there are people within the SCA that take things WAY too serious and for some reason, have issues with ren faires. That being said, I am a SCA member and have never been snarked/troubleshot/etc over my garb... as long as I didn't try to pass it off as historically accurate, not saying that is what happened, just sayin'. In fact, what you see in my pic is what I where to SCA events.
As far as pirates go, the time period that the SCA re-creates ends at 1600. Yes there were pirates during that time but they did not look anything like the average pirate you see at a ren faire. That "style", for lack of a better word, of pirate is from the 1720s, generally about 150 years after the setting of most ren faires.
My 2 cents.
I was a member of the SCA for years, but a fair while ago. I'd still consider participating, except I'd probably end up fixing my old armor, and fighting again, but I've got too many joint issues to stay out of the hospital if I did that. About the same time I was active, I dated a young lady in one of the local re-creation guilds, and dealt with them a little. I also did faires at the time. I did have a few experiences, with all three groups, that were disparaging of the others, but they were few and far between. I found that most people understood that there would be different levels of interest, experience, garbing skill, and finances that lead to various appearances. Unless your a performer, cast, or merchant, these are all HOBBIES (gasp, blasphemy I know), and while some take it a little far, but I think most of us know its all for fun.
Those who can get a little snarky can get annoying, but if they really do know their stuff, you can try to use them as a resource if you are organizing, just remember to take what they say with a grain of salt. Especially if such people are going to be involved in the activites, they need to be made aware that making others uncomfortable, be they paytron, playtron, merchant or performer, is unacceptable. Even the most authentic faire and participants have to be aware and concious of things now that were not issues in period, from health and building codes, to local weapons laws, and the necassary mobile/temporary nature of structures.
To give you all a full run down on who this guild member is, let me go into more detail. The head planner for the city ren fest we were building last year wanted ideas from all different areas of experience with renaissance festivals. She ask for both myself and my wife as playtron who understood what a true renaissance festival was all about. The whole year we were planning she kept saying she wants a renaissance festival and NOT an SCA or Guild type event. In my mind then this meant she wanted entertainment. But then she also asked the guilds to put on live demonstrations of renaissance living. So then it seemed like it was more Guild than ren event. We had several problems, which the head planner is addressing. One of which was when it was asked how many people would do live events like that, the numbers were very few. It was said there would be around 5 people who do the live events for her guild. Then the last weeks of planning she woman representing the guilds asked for 91 that's right "91" wrist bands for guild members.
Another guild that was doing the armored battles (which went over well) said they needed to have the two doing battle in the ring plus the others members that were doing the following battles. Which included Fully armored, Shanie, and one other type of swordsman style battle. But in the mean time they had 10 others going around explaining to people what they were doing in the ring. My question was Why would you need 10 people to do that? I can see needing only ONE person to describe it everyone of what is going on and possibly 4 others for security around the ring. Maybe stretch it to those four doing the description of what was going on, but then your talking over each other. They were saying they needed everyone in the guild to do this which from my understanding the guild had well over 30 people for the battle. I felt like these guilds took advantage of a woman whose understanding was limited in what was really needed. When I questioned the need for so many people and used the description that at a renaissance festival when there is jousting all they have is the knights their squires and a few others for security and only ONE person who describes what is going on. It was at that point where the gentleman representing the archery guild jumped in and said the line "People who do renaissance festivals don't live it, only people in guilds and SCA really know what it's like to LIVE the time period." I almost wanted to rip the guys head off. It was the was he said it in a very snarky demeaning way towards renaissance festival performers.
Another thing that bothered me was that for months the head person with the archery guild was saying they would have and archery contest, I asked who would be doing that and said "everyone" I asked if that included the public and he said yes. So I was trying promote the archery contest with the adds I did. The day of the event which doesn't open till 10:00 and this guy is running around at 8:30 telling everyone "Archery contest at 9:00" so I asked him why have it before the event if everyone is allowed to play? He then said "NO it's only for guild members" I was very much WTF? Even still why have the archery contest before the event I figured do it during the event and promote it for people to watch. But he insisted to have it early, the reason as I found out was that if they had it during the day it would have been less time to have the public shoot arrows and less time for them to get money for the patrons.
Over all my experience with the local SCA and other type of guilds we used for the event is that I am disgusted with these people. They did nothing but take advantage of the event and used it for their own purposes. Then on Sunday when the event was promoted to run Sat & SUn from 10;00AM till 6:00PM (because the guild vendors shouted they wanted it to run till 6:00 or they wouldn't do the event) not the professional vendors who do ren fests but the guild. Then on Sunday we had a hard wind storm and it blew down the Guild members pavilions so rather than dig in and secure the lines better they packed up and left the event early. Hence no battle, no archery and half the vendors left. I also had a full schedule of entertainment with to local high school quiors two guild belly dance groups and a pirate group. The belly dance guild said they would need to adjust their dance because of the wind, I said no problem. But then when I went to find out where they were, I see them all packed up and walking towards their cars.
It was for these reasons I hope in the very near future this new event will no longer need to rely on a bunch of unprofessional people such as these guilds. I feel that if you make a promise you stick to it. But from my view point, not one of these guild held up their end of the deal.
Sorry....got a bit windy there....putting soap box away for the next person.
Wow, all I can say is grossly unprofessional.
Oh wait, they aren't professionals, they are hobbyists.
Is there no way to require participation from the guilds that basically getting into the event free? If they are scheduled to do demonstrations and activities, can they not be help accountable? I mean above not allowing tnhem on premises next time. Writen or verbal, they broke contract, and had a massive negative impact on the festival. The heads of the guild(s) who were involoved in the plannign should be held accountable somehow. Thye promised so many bodies for certain times, for certain activites, and failed to produce. As you said, the archery contest was an advertised selling point.
91 passes? Really? What, did they intend to invite everyone they knew? Wow....
It doesn't appear that what is being called a guild is what I'm thinking of and really doesn't resemble what we have here.
We have an internal structure to insure that the tasks assigned to us by the event Entertainment Director are accomplished. Individual stage managers are assigned by the Entertainment Director to insure that specific tasks such as shows and parades are accomplished when they're scheduled. I'm not familiar with such entities as archery guilds since they aren't within my experience. Some of us are independent within our guilds. Specifically these are members who work the streets or provide craft demonstrations within the guild area. We generally have guild morning notes to insure that people are available for specific tasks.
In the past, we've had visitors from the staffs of other events visit us to gain an understanding of how we are organized so that they can take this information back with them to their home events.
I'm not implying that ours is the only way, but it's worked for a long time. If we weren't meeting the needs of the event, we wouldn't be invited back.
I've spoken to the head planner and she said she is addressing that issue with that guild's contact person who was also a planning committee member. I hope next year they have a better way to be held accountable, but it's in the head planners hands on how she wants to do to hold them accountable. She hasn't shared it with me or anyone else yet. We won't be getting together again to start planning meeting till next year, so it's a rather wait and see thing right now. But yes Betty my view of these guilds is thoroughly unprofessional. And the 91 passes were just for one guild, we had about 6 guilds represented there. There was one guild that was a late joiner of Vikings and Cossacks they called themselves, and from what I saw they did absolutely nothing but sit in their tents and drink all day.
At RPFS, the number of 91 gate passes is probably a bit small for some guilds. Cuthberts, Ives, Military, and Celt all probably exceed that number.
But we're expected to work for it. We're all protective of our reputation since, if we fail to meet our obligations, we won't be invited back. Just sitting around the guild yard doing nothing isn't an option. Nor is hiding out and just attending shows and shopping an option.
We actually have two internal structures with Cuthberts. We have members who are responsible for specific functions such as banner captain, leather booth, parade monitor, crafts boss, water mom (Otter Mommy), yard boss, and kitchen. We also have guild rankings ranging from candidate, apprentice, journeyman, foreman, and master. The former are designated by our Guildmaster. With the exception of Candidate, advancement through the ranks is done by vote of those holding that or higher rank. Voting isn't a popularity contest but is based on the individual's contribution. So someone who's a bit shy as far as public interaction is concerned, but is a willing worker on the construction crew and meets their daily obligations such as carrying a banner during the run has the same opportunity as the one who enjoys doing street gigs or has roles in the pageants. I'm generally one of the two Apprentice Masters (the other being Roger Russell--aka Gaffer Applewright) and have the function of helping new members and counseling those who don't understand that a gate pass carries responsibilities. Problems that I can't handle are taken to our Guildmaster.
I expect there's a TMI element here, but it describes what I understand a guild to be.
If that was what they were doing Carl I probably would haven't had any problems. But what I saw was completely different. When a guild tells me they'll perform at 1:00 to 1:30 for belly dancing and I still haven't seen them or found them at 1:25 that tells me they aren't living up to their obligations. When I did find them at 1:35 they were packed up and headed towards their cars. Tells me they enjoyed the free ride, but when the weather wasn't as perfect for them as they wanted it was time to pack up. Name me one Renaissance festival that does that and I'll show you one that doesn't have a long run of success. We had people still showing up at 2:00 and they were very disappointed that nothing was really going on because the guilds had all packed up.
Disappointed customers don't return and you get a bad reputation for not full filling your obligations to the community you promised would be able to see things both days, but later found out that wasn't true.
True. That's why we go to such an extent to protect our reputation. If they can't understand that, they don't deserve another invitation. Our structure is our protection from a few members harming us and the event.
I think that's part of the problem with some of these people. Some of those on the planning committee who are on the guilds think we can't do it without them. I wonder what they'll think after we've taken the head planner to AZRF this coming president's day weekend and she sees what a real Ren fest is all about? From my understanding, she has never been to a true ren fest, only local guild gatherings or what they call "Canton's"? I think that's how they spell it.
Can I also suggest RPFS as a comparison?
It's one that I want to go to for sure, but right now the main one we have planned is AZRF. We're located about in the middle of both, but there are advantages for us going to AZRF vs RPFS at the moment. Also AZRF would be cheaper for us to go to as well. Plus with us already having attended AZRF we know what to expect and can better introduce the head planner to it. When we get the chance to though I so want to go.
It's been several years since we've visited AZRF.
Back then, the orientation seemed to be more toward vendors with a small number of theme characters. There were a couple of environmental areas, but the folks in them were more for giving demonstrations instead of working the streets. The last couple of times, I didn't go in costume because I was upsetting other customers when I told them that I was also just visiting and had little idea of the location of the nearest privies, gate, etc. Most of the shows were pass the hat and that also bothered me a bit. (I can recall an instance where we were under a small covered area to avoid the rain and a young fellow who was, at best, marginal as a juggler attempted to put on a pass the hat in that impromptu stage.)
It just had a different flavor. Not bad, just different. Otherwise, we wouldn't have gone for several years. The array of vendors was a real plus as were the permanent structures.
If that's still the case, RPFS would give you a better example of the use of guilds and troupes.
When it gets closer I'll definitely try and push a trip to go, I'd love to see what they do there.