Okay, so there's something that's been on my mind recently, and I'd like to hear the thoughts of the community on it. This is really the ONE thing that irks me about Ren Fest - everything else I love.
So here's my gripe: In "regular" society, the ideal attractive woman is thin and has big breasts, and these ideals are rigorously instilled into girls at an early age. We all know this is unhealthy and results in a lot of body issues, anorexia, low self esteem, etc.
One thing that's great about the Fest culture is that at Fest, women are NOT made to feel like they need to be stick thin to be beautiful - in fact, curviness is praised perhaps even more than thinness. This is fine and great. But if curviness is praised more than thinness, the big-breast requirement, in my mind, is even more staunchly enforced at Fest than it is in the real world. I'm not saying I have a problem with woman showing cleavage or embracing their sexuality. But there is so much emphasis placed on cleavage and being large-chested that, as a person who is somewhat sparsely endowed in that area, it gets somewhat annoying. And although I mainly came to terms with my body years ago, I can't help feeling a little put down sometimes. But my personal feelings really aren't the issue.
What this makes me think is that as a community, we are not as accepting as we claim to be. I am completely happy that curvier women who are (quite wrongly) made to feel unattractive in "regular" society are made to feel beautiful at Fest. I agree that they are beautiful! This is a message we should be sending to our daughters. But if (hopefully, when) I have a daughter, chances are she, like me, will not big-breasted. I love Fest, but I don't want my daughter in a place where she feels any less beautiful than the DDs that are so highly praised on the festival grounds.
I realize this may offend some people. That's not my intention. It's just been on my mind, and I'm wondering if others feel the same way, and what other thoughts the community may have.
You know, I'd never thought of that aspect. I have a large chest and so it's just not occurred to me. Though honestly corsets tied tight enough can make even the small chesterd look more endowed! My mom is very happy about that being of the smaller size herself.
I have nothing constructive to say here, not being a man. I don't even know why chests are so exciting to begin with? THey aren't useful really like well endowed men r... I'm sorry that you feel more put upon even here, where so many find acceptance! I love all shapes and sizes and think acceptance of all is important indeed!!
Nope, not offended here!
I, too, don't fall into the "well endowed" category, and I want my kids (and myself) to be able to be happy with who they are, not how skinny/fat/boob size...ect.!
I think it's an ongoing struggle for most people,male or female, but women are judged more harshly.
I can just hope I can do my best to be healthy (an ongoing struggle, too) and happy! :)
Your future daughters won't "feel any less beautiful" unless they are taught that big boobs make you beautiful.
We all have something that might make us feel less attractive. I see a lot of garb at faire that I would LOVE to make and wear, but there's no way I could. After having 2 kids and having a belly that looked like I was carrying triplets, I'm left with a belly I want NO one to see. I don't let it get me down, I still have a blast!
All women are beautiful. I do not think anyone should hold themselves up to the social mirror, and try to emulate the "model" image. It is not healthy to starve yourself into thinness (for the mundane world) or gorge yourself into plumpness (for the ren world).
Just be you! Your personality will bolster your beauty, and subdue your self-proclaimed shortcomings.
Yes, we men like to see clevage blossoming from the womens' Elizabethan gowns! HubbaHubba! But we men also like to see women (just women)! HubbaHubba!
I'm certain your daughter will be beautiful, no matter what her body type; just as I'm certain her mother is beautiful with her body type.
Now, no more thoughts of this! Women are beautiful. Thank God for women!
Although I feel there is more body acceptance at the faires, I unfortunately feel sort of the flip side of that. I love the open sensuality of faires and the bawdy nature. The sad part is that, like any specialty group, you will attract the fringe element. /disclaimer
If anything I dress in a *less feminine* nature at faires because honestly, it ticks me off to be called
"Hey Wench" (dear wenches guild members, I am referring to how a patron might misconstrue this term)
And often men (and some women) will say things to me that are NOT flirty, funny, naughty or bawdy but just crass. "cause that's the way they were"
Back to the positive aspects-actress Camryn Manheim admits she got her start at renfaires and has a special part in her autobiography dedicated to a "juggler with talented hands" who made her feel beautiful.
Being one of the more well endowed girls I can say that fest is probably the only place I am comfortable showing them off (so to speak) in my normal life I do anything and everything I can to hide, smash down, minimize, etc.. I agonize over how clothes look and if there is too much boob showing (safety pins are my friend).. I have been brought to tears on numerous occasions over this..
In the same breath I have seen women at faire who take this to an extreme and have a little too much spillage.. This just appears unattractive in my opinion, one deep breath would be all it would take to bring the show from PG-13 to R.. :o
Being a beer wench at MNRF is loads of fun, and mostly the patrons enjoy the "wenchiness" there are always those random few (read: drunk college guys) who think just because you are dressed this way it's okay for them to reach out and touch someone... I swear if it happens again this year.. Someones losing a finger... >:(
So in the end, I think fest is somewhere that women of all shapes and sizes can come, dress as they like and not be judged on "size". I hope it always remains that way..
I would imagine if I have a daughter someday she will probably be like me and be blessed up top, I hope not to instill my insecurities into her, but have her embrace her own beauty in a way I never will..
Keep in mind also that fashion dictates where the eye will go. Most everything else is covered in some way. Breasts are bound to be the focal point, (hahaha...literally!) and as Butch said, men are happy to let us know our efforts are appreciated. Okay...he said Hubba hubba...but it's the same thing. :)
Personally, I'd much rather have a comment upon my eyes or my smile, or a general hubba hubba, rather than any direct attention upon my cleavage. I think the ren world does sometimes miss what is truely lovely about the ladies. The inside of a wrist peeking from a ruffled cuff or the bare nape of the neck from uplifted hair. So many subtleties are missed in the glaring neon of boobage! :D
Not offended. You make good sense!
Quote from: Bugsey on April 23, 2010, 10:05:58 AM
Your future daughters won't "feel any less beautiful" unless they are taught that big boobs make you beautiful.
Very good thought!
There is that divide, but I've never thought that big curves were more desirable at faire - only that they tend to attract more attention - and sometimes trouble. And garb is key to that.
I've always found it rather disheartening that I get mostly positive attention at faire ... and the extreme opposite in the real world. I've had more than on fellow told me that I'd be more dateable if I weighed less. Faire only lasts the weekends in a set period of time, after all.
Muffin ... you could turn that losing-a-finger thought into a bit. Maybe make a pin, "Tips accepted, touches not" ...
I do have a pin that reads what color are my eyes? LOL! On more than one occassion I will have someone who was eyeing me up look at me and say "uh... blue".. :D
I feel the same way sometimes. In the "real" world I'm invisible and at Faire I'm beautiful both in body and in personality because at Faire I can let my true bubbly personality shine.
and on the matter of the touching....my phrase is "You may look but not touch. Touch and you'll pull back a bloody stump"
my best friend struggles with this issue as well she's struggled with her body image for years she was wearing a size 22 when we met and even at that size i thought she was beautiful but she didn't think she was i watched her exercise her butt off litterly and practically starve herself to get down to a size six i also threatened to kick her tail end if she lost anymore weight. now that she isn't starving herself she is up to a healthy body weight and looks much healthier. yet she still doesn't see how beautiful she is because she has small breast.
i think as long as you teach them it's ok to be who you are they will be ok.
me i was just too stuborn to care what they thought of me i'm gonna be me no matter what
You know....the french always said that more than could fit in a champagne glass was too much....
(on a side note, they don't mean champagne FLUTE like I thought/imagined the first time I heard that saying... ;D ;D ;D )
Quote from: Amyj on April 23, 2010, 01:04:51 PM
You know....the french always said that more than could fit in a champagne glass was too much....
(on a side note, they don't mean champagne FLUTE like I thought/imagined the first time I heard that saying... ;D ;D ;D )
(http://www.sipquips.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/12270.jpg)
Of course I have to voice my thoughts.
Faire is only as bawdy as you make it.
I am well endowed but my noble garb doesn't have cleavage out to THERE.
The 'ideal' body type for women has changed many times since anyone first took notice.
In the 1920's, stick thin and flat chested was the fashionable ideal.
Women come in all shapes and sizes regardless of what is currently fashionable but I know how hard it is to deal with others' expectations. Hardly anyone is accepting as they claim to be. But in this social subset we tend to have different, and perhaps a smaller number of prejudices.
As for your daughters, you can try to teach them that it is the one 'out of the ordinary' who attracts the most attention, both good and bad. The fabulously beautiful women will attract many admirers and likely as many stalkers. But the existence of those women doesn't mean that other women are not attractive in their own way. Sometimes its a matter of looking beyond the ten people closest to you and looking at the overall picture to see where you can find a comfortable place.
I can certainly see the point some of you make about the emphasis on cleavage causing men to think it acceptable to make inappropriate comments or stare at it openly. I've noticed that too, and although some women don't seem bothered, some obviously are, and that's a problem too. (I do love Muffin's "what color are my eyes?" pin! :) ) Although we are open to bawdiness at faire, and Festies generally know how to do it right, sometimes it goes to far and becomes creepy and insulting.
QuoteI think the ren world does sometimes miss what is truely lovely about the ladies. The inside of a wrist peeking from a ruffled cuff or the bare nape of the neck from uplifted hair. So many subtleties are missed in the glaring neon of boobage!
Very good point, Anna!
QuoteYour future daughters won't "feel any less beautiful" unless they are taught that big boobs make you beautiful.
As to this, I totally agree, but the problem is that girls ARE taught this - not by their parents (hopefully), but by society. No matter how many times your parents say you're beautiful just the way you are, I'm afraid the societal pressure to conform to the "model" standard is much stronger than can be balanced out by parental approval...
Well as I guy I do enjoy any women who dresses well at faire and away from faire to be honest. Now do I like to see cleavage? I'm a guy enough said. HOWEVER, I have seen some women that do go beyond what is acceptable even for a faire and those I'd rather not see since a faire, however bawdy, is still a family show. As long as its tastefully done, I have no problems if the lady is well endowed or not so well endowed. Size does not matter. I mostly wear noble garb and ladies noble garb does not push them out there because its not supposed to. Does that make those ladies less attractive than the "bar wench"? Not in my opinion. And frankly size 2 or size 22, if they dress appropriately, they are all beautiful in their own ways. Now being a guy I will also say this for you ladies, if you are going to "let it hang out there", don't be offended when we guys look. If you don't want guys looking at your cleavage then don't have cleavage hanging out everywhere. Muffin's pin is indeed great and I've seen several of them in that vein and I think they are perfect (the pins that is). Besides the "what color are my eyes" I've seen ones that say "my eyes are farther up", "yes they are nice thank you" and others. ;D
My personal opinion is since society says that the chest area of a woman is a naughty part and shouldn't be displayed when you have regular joe american going to faire and they are being shown they tend to start. Not saying its right. I know when i first started going to the faire the acreage being shown caught my eye, now i don't notice it as much.
I have to admit a lady at faire i asked out one of the first things i noticed was what she was showing and this was when i was first getting into faire. It wasn't till after faire ran its course that we were able to get together. I remember her coming to the door when i went to pick her up in a turtle neck and still thought she was as lovely as i remember at faire so i guess i did notice more then just one thing.
think a nice button would be "Tips excepted! Weather it be cash or your fingers for touching!"
As for the skinny as a twizzle stick look well since i'm a big man i tend to feel like i'm going to break them cause they are so skinny so i do tend to enjoy a woman with curves that i can hold.
Quote from: Charlotte Rowan on April 23, 2010, 09:08:52 AM
...In "regular" society, the ideal attractive woman is thin and has big breasts, and these ideals are rigorously instilled into girls at an early age. We all know this is unhealthy and results in a lot of body issues, anorexia, low self esteem, etc...
I dare say society asks men to be 6'4" and muscular, no different. Guys will take dangerous hormones and drugs just to get that look.
Big, little, thin, fat (yep, used the "F" word!), tall, short, don't matter a bit, it's the total package. I've seen perfect female forms turn ugly when they open their mouths and speak. I've seen "larger" women who sing and dance and think, a joy to spend a day at their side.
And here's where some may think the 'ol boy's snapped...I see an itsy-bitsy bikini clad gal at the beach and sure I'm enjoying the view (human nature)...yet I cant help but picture her in big 'ol hoops and a court gown! Ooh, did I catch a glimpse of the nape of her neck? ;D
LOL...yeah..laugh all you want Dreg. I knew that would be a hard sell for the western male mind...BUT those are exactly the two areas that were considered highly sensual during the days of the Japanese Geisha. A Geishas makeup was painted specifically to highlight the nape of her neck and a flash of a bared wrist or arm from benath those long sleeves was very provocotive. Everything else was covered. The very fact that the nape was really the only skin shown made it especially attractive.
Don't beleive your story of the bikini and hoops one little bit. :)
Personally, I love women of all shapes and sizes. I'm an equal opporutunity woman lover. I've dated women with no cleavage and women with lots. My current gf weighs as much as me or more and I could give a care in the world. Is she fat or do I think of her as fat? Nope to both questions. A word I love to use is Buxom! I would LOVE to get her in a renaissance style dress...but she's not the type to show off the goods, which is fine.
Sure the faire style lends itself more to buxom curvy women, but to me there's something to be said about thin waifs.....
One thing I always loved when reading Sherlock Holmes is how Watson always noticed a woman's ankle....heh, as a kid I never understood that but now that I'm older and have taken "costume history" in college...I get it!
One thing I heard on the radio the other day was women were now preferring men that weren't as beefed up (apparently they try harder in the sack to please) and even wanted more facial hair.....
Charlotte: I feel the same as you do! I do not have ample cleavage and when I put my corsets on I feel a little, well, out of place when my dear friends next to me have the ample amount to be pushed up. never feel uncomfortable about my body outside faire, but when at faire this is the one time I wish I had larger pups just to make that darn corset look a little better!
I myself do have a daughter,well, a step daughter to be exact. She's only nine and already is self conscience about her body. It actually started at the end of kindergarten begining of 1st grade where she became unwilling to wear a two piece swim suit or anything that showed off her back ( halter tops are a big NO to her) As anyone who has seen my daughter she is GORGEOUS! very tall and slender, blond hair, blue eyes. She will end up more well endowed then myself as her mother has nice size cleavage, not too bawdy. I have to say at faire is the only place she feels comfortable enough to let those feelings go. She will wear a sprite costume that shows her belly and has only one shoulder, or she will wear a princess dress. She never worries how she will look to others there.
Her father is a graphic designer and she sees those photos he's asked to "touch up" and covering up blemishes, making her taller, thinning her out. We have always told her this is not the way a girl should expect to look and she sees that these "models" are being made to look this way. Even that being said she is being given the impression that this is the way the world wants her to look on an everyday basis and the only place she can get away from it is at faire.
Quote from: Charlotte Rowan on April 23, 2010, 09:08:52 AM
One thing that's great about the Fest culture is that at Fest, women are NOT made to feel like they need to be stick thin to be beautiful - in fact, curviness is praised perhaps even more than thinness. This is fine and great. But if curviness is praised more than thinness, the big-breast requirement, in my mind, is even more staunchly enforced at Fest than it is in the real world. I'm not saying I have a problem with woman showing cleavage or embracing their sexuality. But there is so much emphasis placed on cleavage and being large-chested that, as a person who is somewhat sparsely endowed in that area, it gets somewhat annoying. And although I mainly came to terms with my body years ago, I can't help feeling a little put down sometimes. But my personal feelings really aren't the issue.
What this makes me think is that as a community, we are not as accepting as we claim to be. I am completely happy that curvier women who are (quite wrongly) made to feel unattractive in "regular" society are made to feel beautiful at Fest. I agree that they are beautiful! This is a message we should be sending to our daughters. But if (hopefully, when) I have a daughter, chances are she, like me, will not big-breasted. I love Fest, but I don't want my daughter in a place where she feels any less beautiful than the DDs that are so highly praised on the festival grounds.
Individuals are what they are, and they're going to have whatever preference they have. I'm going bald, a lot of women don't like that, but life is a bit...I mean, life is tough. I guess I'm trying to reject the premise of your complaint without being too rude about it. You, and your future daughter, are just going to have to deal with the prevailing conditions wherever you choose to go. Asking leopards to change their spots because it makes the tigers feel uncomfortable won't get you anywhere.
Hey I just had a great idea! Maybe we should have a federal law that sets a quota for everyone to give a disingenuous compliment so many times a day to people they otherwise wouldn't. Heck, that's how we deal with other things.
QuoteCharlotte: I feel the same as you do! I do not have ample cleavage and when I put my corsets on I feel a little, well, out of place when my dear friends next to me have the ample amount to be pushed up. never feel uncomfortable about my body outside faire, but when at faire this is the one time I wish I had larger pups just to make that darn corset look a little better!
I myself do have a daughter,well, a step daughter to be exact. She's only nine and already is self conscience about her body. It actually started at the end of kindergarten begining of 1st grade where she became unwilling to wear a two piece swim suit or anything that showed off her back ( halter tops are a big NO to her) As anyone who has seen my daughter she is GORGEOUS! very tall and slender, blond hair, blue eyes. She will end up more well endowed then myself as her mother has nice size cleavage, not too bawdy. I have to say at faire is the only place she feels comfortable enough to let those feelings go. She will wear a sprite costume that shows her belly and has only one shoulder, or she will wear a princess dress. She never worries how she will look to others there.
Her father is a graphic designer and she sees those photos he's asked to "touch up" and covering up blemishes, making her taller, thinning her out. We have always told her this is not the way a girl should expect to look and she sees that these "models" are being made to look this way. Even that being said she is being given the impression that this is the way the world wants her to look on an everyday basis and the only place she can get away from it is at faire.
Thanks for sharing this. I'm glad to hear your daughter is able to feel comfortable at faire, and it is sad that peple feel photos of her need to be "fixed!"
Quote from: Noble Dreg on April 23, 2010, 07:54:52 PM
I dare say society asks men to be 6'4" and muscular, no different. Guys will take dangerous hormones and drugs just to get that look.
Oh, I know society places demands on men as well - I didn't mean to imply otherwise. However (and maybe I'm wrong about this), I don't think the society pressure is quite as strong, and I don't think guys have as many body issues as women do.
QuoteIndividuals are what they are, and they're going to have whatever preference they have. I'm going bald, a lot of women don't like that, but life is a bit...I mean, life is tough. I guess I'm trying to reject the premise of your complaint without being too rude about it. You, and your future daughter, are just going to have to deal with the prevailing conditions wherever you choose to go. Asking leopards to change their spots because it makes the tigers feel uncomfortable won't get you anywhere.
I know I have to deal with it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it, or refrain from voicing my discontent over it.
Quote from: Charlotte Rowan on April 25, 2010, 08:22:11 PM
I know I have to deal with it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it, or refrain from voicing my discontent over it.
You do not have to refrain from voicing your discontent, but that's not the only thing you did. You suggested hypocrisy on the part of everyone else with this line from your original post.
QuoteWhat this makes me think is that as a community, we are not as accepting as we claim to be.
Before and after, you loaded it up with qualifiers, but that doesn't change the point you really wanted to make, which is an insult. I don't even know what you're talking about with the big chest prejudice. I'm sure it's there, but from my personal experience you're grossly overstating it. Here's a picture of two of the girls in our fair/convention work/play group, we sell fairy wings. This pic is from a sci-fi convention but they wear the same thing at fair.
(http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/8572/decon08003a.jpg)
Judging by the attention they get at fair, and the attention that the waif thin flat chested girls I see in our shop getting from patrons and playtrons alike, it makes me think that this really is ALL about your personal feelings, in spite of what you say. The problem only exists in your mind, and you should refrain from projecting some flaw on the rest of us to make yourself feel better.
Synikul, please stay on topic and refrain from personal attacks.
The ladies you work with are very pretty (not what I would call flat chested) and I am sure they attract much attention but I don't believe what Charlotte is saying is being "grossly" overstated. I cant begin to tell you how many times I have heard faire referred to as "breast fest" and when searching through faire photos a good majority of them are of well endowned women. Body wise I am in the middle ground on this, neither very large or very small but I have seen my sister and friends have the same concerns when dressing for faire.
Is this the case with every single photo, statement, person? No, nothing ever is but when you are on the otherside it tends to stand out more. She is concerned for her (future) daughter's self-esteem, what is wrong with that? Thank God she does care and is looking out for her.
Now, Charlotte, as hard as it may be at times I think this is just going to be one of those situations where you must lead by example and be proud of yourself and your body to show your (future) daughter that it doesn't matter what she looks like in or out of faire. As you said before society does make large impact and being told you're beautiful from a parent does little to squat which is why i want to stress leading through example. Being told you are beautiful from someone who doesnt feel beautiful themselves does not make as large as an impact as someone who is proud to be themselves. We have some of the greatest men and women here and they have said so many things that should inspire and strengthen any doubt. ;D
I guess I'm on both sides of this topic. I have loss some weight recently so I've been to faire in the more 'noticable' outfits, and this pass faire I wore my smallest bodice and it was still too big so I diddn't get the double takes as before. People look and comment. No one has tried to touch but as I work as a waitress in my day to day life my favorite expression of choice is "I accept tips, not fingertips!"
I take my two nieces to faire and as they are 3 and 4 years old body image is not on their minds, trying not to get kiddnapped by pirates was their main concern! :) I've also taken my nephews to faire and as they were 12 and 14 the last time they went, attire and bawdy jokes were all they remembered!
I hope that when my nieces get old enough to voice their concerns to me about dress and image, I can teach them to dress and look at themselves positively. No one elses opinon should matter but their own. I don't know if any of this helped or confused you but its my two cents. ;p
Quote from: Synikul on April 25, 2010, 09:13:07 PM
Quote from: Charlotte Rowan on April 25, 2010, 08:22:11 PM
I know I have to deal with it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it, or refrain from voicing my discontent over it.
You do not have to refrain from voicing your discontent, but that's not the only thing you did. You suggested hypocrisy on the part of everyone else with this line from your original post.
QuoteWhat this makes me think is that as a community, we are not as accepting as we claim to be.
Before and after, you loaded it up with qualifiers, but that doesn't change the point you really wanted to make, which is an insult. I don't even know what you're talking about with the big chest prejudice. I'm sure it's there, but from my personal experience you're grossly overstating it.
Okay, I can see how you could find that line insulting. It really wasn't my intention to accuse the community of hipocrisy or "project a flaw" onto anyone. I don't believe members of the community are hypocrites. So - please accept my sincere apologies for inadvertently insulting you.
However, I still beg to differ on some of your points. Firstly, I'm pretty sure I know what the point I really wanted to make was, and you have misinterpreted that. Maybe I didn't do the best job making it, and you are certainly free to tell me if I inadvertently insulted you and what you perceived from my words, but you can't tell me what my intentions were. (This, by the way, is exactly what I meant to do with this post - not tell people that they intend to communicate by the emphasis on big boobage, but how others may perceive this emphasis.) All I wanted was an open discussion about the issue. That's one of the many things I love about these forums - we can generally discuss things civilly even if people have different opinions.
Secondly, as you can see from some of the other replies here, the phenomenon is not all in my mind.
QuoteNow, Charlotte, as hard as it may be at times I think this is just going to be one of those situations where you must lead by example and be proud of yourself and your body to show your (future) daughter that it doesn't matter what she looks like in or out of faire. As you said before society does make large impact and being told you're beautiful from a parent does little to squat which is why i want to stress leading through example. Being told you are beautiful from someone who doesnt feel beautiful themselves does not make as large as an impact as someone who is proud to be themselves. We have some of the greatest men and women here and they have said so many things that should inspire and strengthen any doubt.
Becky, you make a great point that leading by example is different (and more effective) than words. This is good advice and I surely will endeavor to follow it. :)
Quote from: Charlotte Rowan on April 23, 2010, 01:50:10 PM
Although we are open to bawdiness at faire, and Festies generally know how to do it right, sometimes it goes to far and becomes creepy and insulting.
Yeah, I remember walking through MDRF once and a couple of drunk (mundane) guys were sitting somewhere eating turkey legs as I went by and commented on the shaking happening at the top of my bodice. Which did bother me (because I go to lengths to make SURE my girls aren't popping out too much) but I just sort of have to let it go.
It's funny because I do love how a bodice makes me look but I'm still not a fan of sticking the girls out there for everyone to see.
I have actually yet to find a corset or bodice that gives me cleavage...I had a ton of body image issues when I was younger ( I was about a foot taller than all my class mates until coming to college) ...but I feel like its really difficult for me to follow any of the garbing norm because they don't work for me...its hard to wear a bodice when you don't have much fat between your rib cage and skin...and a small chest as well..if i wear a bodice or corset tight enough to get anywhere close to having cleavage I literally am crushing my ribcage and will pass out in about half an hour. Cropped bodices are pretty much the only way to go for me...but it makes it alot harder to do any sort of standard wench look or pirate look...I end up looking too much like a gypsy or like I'm from the east...which I like, but not when I'm going for something else...
*sigh*
Ladies remember even though society says you should look one way....men are not society. Each and every one of you are loved by someone that will never ever ask you to change cause they believe you are perfect as is.
Yes the norms do go to faire and think its a boobfest but those that are regulars don't think that. A friend taught me one of the best things in the world is taken a ladies hand, look deeply into her eyes as you kiss said hand.
As for ladies dressing as pirates you have to remember in history a woman dressed like a man to be on a pirate ship.
Someday i do hope i get a chance to look deeply in each of your eyes why i kiss your hand.
I have a couple of thoughts on this, that I'm sure not everyone will be happy with, but here goes....
I don't really have much thought on the whole boobage issue. I like boobs as much as the next guy, but at faires the corset n' cleavege thing seems to to have gone over into caricature and parody, deliberately exaggerated to produce an effect. I know it's all that a lot of danes go on about, but the novelty has worn off for me to the point I don't really notice it anymore.
When I first saw this thread, my first thought was 'surely everybody at renfaire is pretty confident about their body image'!
The reason I thought that is because I see so many people, of both sexes, at faires that are proudly displaying body types that certainly do not fit into the "societal norms" being discussed. Honestly, I sometimes think some of their garb choices a bit over the top, showing a little too much of a good thing. My wife and I call it the "just because it fits, doesn't mean you should wear it" syndrome.
Don't get the idea I'm just talking about heavier people, I think a chainmail barbarian outfit is as ill-considered on a scrawny 90 pound girl or guy as it might be on someone with a pot belly and cottage cheese everything else.
I guess my point is that while we don't always know how they might dress in the mundane world, I don't think these folks are too concerned about fitting into what society thinks they should look like. So I'd think that faires would teach kids to be more accepting of the variety of bodies out there.
You know, I agree Charlotte. I love hearing all the different thoughts when a (potentially) controversial subject is tossed out. Makes me think about my own experiences and reactions and so forth.
I guess what I've learned, or certainly what I try to do in any situation where I might feel outside what is considered more desirable a) step up my game and figure a way to have that in which I see myself lacking,or b) accept that while I don't have some attribute I may have "this" or "that" that I can play up that will make me shine. I think this the healthier option, but there certainly are ways to enhance ones cleavage if that is the direction anyone wants to go. Nothing wrong with that. Victoria's Secret has oodles of ways.
I certainly struggle with feeling imperfect and I am from the well endowed group. I think that's the trick for all of us ladies. To get beyond whatever it is we think is imperfect about ourselves and just let our own unique beauty shine through. Put a daisy next to a rose, next to a morning glory and tell me which is more beautiful. Some will say one perhaps, some the other, but in truth aren't they all equal? Why should we feel any differently about ourselves.
Charlotte, you're daughter is young and I see more and more advertising using average sized women. You can't shield her from all the advertisements using models who have been overly airbrushed and surgically enhanced, but you can be sure to introduce her to groups of women who do have healthy self esteem and healthy natural bodies. I certain think there are plenty of women at faire that would provide that for her. It'll just be up to you to be sure she has a well rounded faire education along with the rest.
Quote from: Anna Iram on April 26, 2010, 02:21:03 PM
but there certainly are ways to enhance ones cleavage if that is the direction anyone wants to go. Nothing wrong with that. Victorias Secret has oodles of ways.
You just reminded me I have to buy a new pair of fakeys for my corset as the squelching heat at the end of BARF this year caused mine to crack :o
I bought my fakeys awhile back when I, in my mind, was too skinny and was just fed up with the fact that even small shirts were still to big in the cleavage area so my husband suggested just doing the fakeys. I have to say they have been fun to wear and I like that I can go from a "a" cup to a "b/c" in just a minute! I do not wear them often anymore since my sizing has gone to a medium after my son. They are nice at fair just because they are able to give me a little more push where there is lack there of with the corset.
I'm struggling at the moment too, but not only because of my own body image, but also because of my race. I've taken up belly dance, and decided to grab the garb that goes with it. I'm somewhat of a gypsy now, which is a realm that is usually dominated by thin white women with long hair that show their stomachs. That is most definitely NOT who I am. I'm a chunky half black girl with short hair and a post baby belly *uuuuugh*. I've been going through the issues of finding something that made me feel as beautiful as I believe my dancing to be (which is pretty damn good, IMHO). I finally have what I'm looking for, but still, find myself a tad too far off of what is usually considered to be "beautiful". It sucks, but we make it work.
Confidence is the most beautiful thing of all. It doesn't matter what size we (or our "girls") are or what we wear to show off or hide our figures. As long as you are confident in yourself you will be beautiful. =D That is what I try to teach my three little girls, even when I don't fully feel it myself!
My lovely wife is a 32A so doesn't get much benefit from a bodice However it does give her a nice waist line. I try to enjoy all the ladies at Faire since they all have something special to offer.
To be honest I prefer working with women who have more curves, and frankly I like working with "goddesses". I can make them look dang good given a little time. The more I work with people the more I find how appreciative having someone who can make you look good no matter your size twiggy or healthy, washboard or shelved.
I will say that ren faire culture is more open to what ever your body type maybe. If you want to show something off more power to you. If you don't, that is your business.
If you think you look good in your mind, then you look good. Simple as that.
my 2 cents: I may be an aberration because I don't see the appeal of big boobs, per se. Not turned OFF by them but not what attracts me to someone. I always thought faire was great because women heavier than the "ideal", not "conventionally" beautiful, whatever- could dress up and show off without people casting the first stone. Same goes for guys. I may be naiive but seems to me like an attractive woman of any size or build is gonna attract attention. I can't imagine thinking negatively of anyone for their body type (tho I might make a snide observation about how one chose to show it off if I thought it was remarkable, tasteless, or especially tasty...).
What I like about faire is that once you're dressed up in "make-believe" clothes, how can you criticize anyone else for dressing up?
Quote from: Lady Raven on April 26, 2010, 02:38:01 PM
Quote from: Anna Iram on April 26, 2010, 02:21:03 PM
but there certainly are ways to enhance ones cleavage if that is the direction anyone wants to go. Nothing wrong with that. Victorias Secret has oodles of ways.
You just reminded me I have to buy a new pair of fakeys for my corset as the squelching heat at the end of BARF this year caused mine to crack :o
I bought my fakeys awhile back when I, in my mind, was too skinny and was just fed up with the fact that even small shirts were still to big in the cleavage area so my husband suggested just doing the fakeys. I have to say they have been fun to wear and I like that I can go from a "a" cup to a "b/c" in just a minute! I do not wear them often anymore since my sizing has gone to a medium after my son. They are nice at fair just because they are able to give me a little more push where there is lack there of with the corset.
Whatever brings a smile to your face at faire is a good thing. :)
This topic is the exact reason I love coming to this forum and everyone in it.
This kind of conversation would be incredibly difficult to have in most mundane society. Too much pressure to be politically correct.
I belong to the not at all well endowed group of women and growing up I was a bit self conscious about it for a while until I became great friends with a girl who was very very well endowed and I started to learn all the issues that she had with her tracks of land (* hehe sorry I was watching holy grail over the weekend*). I can always get padded bras or fakeys like Lady Raven to fill out a dress or a shirt better, and when I get home I can put them away. My well endowed friends can't take theirs off and have to deal with the hassles of them on a daily basis.
In regards to men feeling the same pressures, I would beg to differ that they really do feel as much pressure as women, they are just not as publicly vocal about it as we are. Those guys working out like crazy in the gym aren't there because its their favorite thing in the world. All those guys that buy propecia and rogaine aren't doing it out of a need to contribute to the economy on a regular basis.
I got lucky and found a great man who is a butt guy and that I have plenty of.
Is faire a much more accepting and welcoming place- damn right it is.
Blue- never forget that to be a historically accurate belly dancer/gypsy, you need to be a curvy woman. Those dances were created and made famous by curvy women, not skinny minnys so you go out there and you dance- whoever doesnt like it just tell them to look elsewhere
Quote from: LadyStitch on April 26, 2010, 04:54:00 PM
no matter your size twiggy or healthy,
Only quoting Lady Stich because she mentions something that seems to be overlooked in these sorts of discussions.
Not every woman who is incredibly thin is unhealthy. I think, since there is such an emphasis on it in the media, and those women are made that way either by starving themselves or starving themselves and then being photoshopped thinner, that it is automatically assumed that every very skinny woman is unhealthy. This is not the case.
My cousin is one of those women. She wore a size 00 when she started high school, and blossemed up to a 0 by the end. She didn't start wearing slightly bigger pants until she went to college and gained a bunch of muscle in her legs from all the weight lifting the track team had to do. Even now, 8 months pregnant, she is still skinnier than I will ever be. Her baby belly is about the same diameter as my hips currently are. :o
My husband knew a girl in college who was also skinny like that, to the point that she was TRYING to gain weight. Her genes didn't want to let her. She had body issues, and was extremely frustrated by her in-ability to gain anything.
There is a big difference between being extremely skinny, because that is the body type you have been gifted with, and being a skeleton that's unhealthy (like we see in the media).
*getting off my soap box now*
Sorry if that sounded ranty, I didn't mean to. I do find it interesting, though, how this side of the discussion often gets left out. It can be hard, no matter your body type, to be happy with what you have. I guess just make sure that there's plenty of positive images/role models for the wee ones, and hope that they will be able to discern the difference between the real and the fake, and that they learn from example to be happy with the real they have. Something I've learned, is that to truely be happy with your body, you need to be happy with who you are. No matter what you make your body do, it won't fix your self-image. That has to come first, or you can get as skinny or as fat as you think you need to to be "ideal" but you won't be happy.
For the record, I am NOT one of the skinny women. And, so this stays more-or-less on-topic of body image at faire, I have not noticed the skinny women being told they need to get bigger [chests]. Seems to me, at faire, a pretty woman is a pretty woman, no matter her size, and is treated as such. Maybe it's different in some places, but that is what I have seen.
this is a wonderful thread!
1) I rarely feel sexy in the real world. I generally feel sexy at faire- for me, it's half the reason I DO faire!
2) My hubby likes boobs (alot), yet HEAVAGE is never attractive. I try to walk a fine line.
3) Again, hubby likes boobs... but yet, he will readily admit some women dont NEED boobs to be gorgeous to him (he is utterly in love with Jenny from Circa Paleo, for example)
I think part of my sexy-feeling at Faire is because of the clothing I get to wear- bodices show off my small waist and enhance the flare of hip and bust. However, it's more than that- it's because I am actually PROUD of the way I look, which changes the perception from fat girl with boobs to renaissance goddess!
For your daughters, and all women of any size to learn- confidence is sexy! It doesnt matter what size, what cup size, whatever- it's the personality that shows in your demeanor, the way your head is held and the way your eyes sparkle, that attracts acclaim.
anyway, that's my two cents. ='D
Quote from: Auryn on April 27, 2010, 09:55:00 AM
In regards to men feeling the same pressures, I would beg to differ that they really do feel as much pressure as women, they are just not as publicly vocal about it as we are. Those guys working out like crazy in the gym aren't there because its their favorite thing in the world. All those guys that buy propecia and rogaine aren't doing it out of a need to contribute to the economy on a regular basis.
Yes, I was thinking about that this morning on the way from the donut shop to where I get my head shaved! ::)
I'm not sure that most men feel as much "external" pressure as women. (although I'm an old fat man, and may be out of touch) The guys that workout a lot and get salon hairstyles, etc.. are thinking more about how they view themselves more than how they look to others.
I'm not saying that all guys that workout are vain and self-centered, working out to stay healthy is one thing, working out to achieve a certain body size/ shape/ image can be pretty shallow.
I wonder ... (bare with me as this thought just popped into my head while I am trying to get a crazy list of things done at work)
I've been following the thread and it seems from what I am picking up that the reason a lot of people feel more comfortable at faire is because they get to wear exactly the things that make them feel comfortable and make them feel their best.
Me personally, I would love to be able to wear more faire/garb type clothing on an every day basis but I don't because I know customers would look at me like I have three heads and wouldn't take me seriously.
Do you think more of us would feel more comfortable and love our bodies more on a daily basis if we weren't so restricted in the social norm of what is acceptable to wear?? I'm not talking about wearing PJs to the office.
But say for example if you work in the corporate world, to be able to wear (albeit clean and not raggedy) bracers, or a corset or something a little more creative??
I mean really there is only so much you can do with mundane clothing and you still end up looking like everyone else.
I know men who DO wear utilikilts every day!
Quote from: bellevivre on April 27, 2010, 02:10:09 PM
I know men who DO wear utilikilts every day!
Yes! I married one!! ;D
Okay he doesn't wear it to work, (well unless its just for a meeting, LOL!) but otherwise he is usually wearing his utilikilt any time we go out, etc..
*squeeeeeeeeeee* Kilts!! :-*
I wish I could wear my corsets to work! but again I would have someone look at me like I was crazy. I work in the sales industry and my customers be them men I would have great commissions, be them women they may turn around and walk out! We just had our dress code at work changed at work because of us women exposing to much cleavage. What can I say, we live in FLORIDA and showing apartments to people in the hot sun all day is no fun! No one is allowed to see our valleys, if they can you actually are counseled. I feel bad for my more well endowed coworkers and most have completely had to buy new wardrobes to cover up. We also can not wear sleeveless shirts.
I wear kilts every day. ;D
Traditional though, no utillykilts..
I have more thoughts...
Auryn, I agree about wearing clothes that make you feel beautiul! The thing is for me I feel just as beautiful when I'm wearing something "mundane" that fits as well and complements my body type as nicely. I think also, for me, it's that in our daily lives..well count how many times we all pass by a mirror, or some reflective surface. Every time you visit a restroom or walk by a storefront etc. I know I tend to be critical. I'm looking for a flaw...hair out of place etc. rather than giving myself a smile. Now how many mirrors do we have at faire? Very few excepting the lads with complements and smiles and friends one meets in the lane. If only we gave ourselves as many a complement each time we spot ourselves in a mirror.
Crazy thought maybe, but consider it.
Hope this isn't going too far off topic. Just gets me to thinkin'.
Anna,
I totally agree with you on the mundane clothes.
I guess its just for me I don't get to wear clothes like that often. I work in the marine industry so its sneakers, shorts and a polo shirt day in and day out.
Faire is when I get to wear exactly what I want how I want and I don't get weird looks for it= its that whole acceptance of faire bit I guess.
Sorry if I strayed the topic away
Wow, so many interesting thoughts... where do I start?!
ArielCallista, I have exactly the same problem!! I don't have a lot of boob fat, but I do have some on my belly, and to have a bodice/corset that gives me any cleavage at all, it has to lace so tightly around my belly that I really can't breathe, and it pokes into me. Ouch. Having one that laced at the sides in addition to the front helps, but it still loosens up at the top. Alas...
Zardoz, I do agree about some people being TOO uninhibited... regardless of a person's size, there is a certain amount of clothing that when someone wears less than that, it becomes inapporpriate in public - even at faire. I don't see too many people crossing that line, and it tends to be patrons, not participants, but every now and then I get too much of an eyeful!
Blue, you are lovely, and I'm sure you look great in your belly dance garb. :) Plus, I bet your dancing rocks!!
Elennare, you make a good point as well. When I was younger, I was very skinny and got asked a few time if I was anorexic. Same thing - I tried to gain weight, but couldn't. Things have changed a bit since I've gotten older, though. :) I still have pretty good metabolism, but I can't eat *whatever* I want now without gaining weight. I guess the bottom line is that we all have things we donb't like about our bodies. *shrug*
And Auryn - yeah, it woud totally rock to be able to wear garb in mundane life, at least now andd then!!
Quote from: Anna Iram on April 27, 2010, 03:15:27 PM
rather than giving myself a smile.
Dear Anna,
We have not spoken in many Moons, but during that time I am sure you have brought many smiles to many faces.
All the Blessings to thee, thy kith and kin,
RdG
Richard! It is always good to see you about the place. :-* You certainly bring a smile to mine. :)
My girl is like 5'0", and has a 44 H or HH bust. Its imposible for her NOT to show more clevage then most folks consider decent, even at faire. Go to our website and look in the Crew section at the bottom, you'll see what I mean. Her most modest bodice still garners so many comments, it's a full time job defending her honor. If she wears one of the bodices I have had commisioned and custom made, well I don't have enough bullets for the flintlock to keep the hounds at bay.
To top it off, she is very short waisted, so most bodices and corsets are way too long and dig into her ample hips. No wonder she is not crazy about coming to faire.
This is an interesting thread...
First off, I'm a B cup and I'm petite. So yes, I sometimes wish I had this or that ladies' larger chest, but I also sometimes wish I had her drop dead gorgeous hair or eyes or long legs. I just want everyone to understand I don't have 'boob envy'... well at least not all the time lol. I'm moody, what can I say... ;D
I have to say I'm not in agreement about the part where you stated that a big breasted requirement is more staunchly enforced at faire. Why? Because it is a choice made by the ladies to wear their garb how they see fit. Even with bodices 'lifting the girls to new heights' there is always the option of bringing the chemise up just a tad if feeling more modest. If they are feeling flirtatious that day then they don't have to wear their clothes in a modest fashion.
Same point with the chainmail. I see women who wear chainmail with or without coverings or 'things protecting the wiggly parts'. It's the choice of the lady.
I disagree on the part about emphasis being placed on cleavage and being large-chested in the faire circle as well. I've never felt or been treated like less of a woman because the lady sitting next to me wears a larger bra size than I do.
The part about the faire community not being as accepting as we claim to be? I have to disagree with that as well. The faire community is based on similar interest, not on who has this or that. Faire is one of the few places where we are free to express ourselves in some form or fashion and yes, feed our mild (or not so mild) case of narcissism with posing for pictures, etc.
Just my thoughts. :)
THis is interesting to me, since in my faire experience I have gone from waifish thin to more than well endowed over the years. I always envied the curves when I didnt have them and I dread them now that I do. All I have right now is my cleavage, and while I dont go overboard, I do my best to make sure the girls look good. I agree that some folks go a little far, I am certain that my son will always be a boob man because of his years of experience at the festival. But I am at an age now where I am glad with what I got, and that it all works. We spend too much time wishing our lives away. There is beauty in every body type and being grateful to have a healthy body is the most important thing. I have found that men, at least the good ones, love self confidence in a woman and will like who you are rather than what you got. The other ones might hoot and holler at you, but they wont think about you again when their attention span is up...about 30 seconds or whenever the next set of gams walks by. And who cares about them??
Quote from: Charlotte Rowan on April 23, 2010, 09:08:52 AM
And although I mainly came to terms with my body years ago, I can't help feeling a little put down sometimes.
I guess what I'd want to know is, what is it that makes you feel put down? Is it just the general emphasis on cleavage, or are there more personal slights?
Personally, I think sexy is far more about attitude than looks (though looks certainly don't hurt). And it's a matter of emphasizing one's own attributes.
I remember faire last year, there was a very beautiful, thin woman. I have no idea what her front side looked like, but she was wearing a backless outfit and had a gorgeous tattoo. Even without the tattoo, I think the whole backless thing is super sexy since it shows off so much skin not often seen. Plus, while even thin women struggle with a wee bit of belly, or think they need to be super toned in front, their backs are typically wonderful.
Being one of those "overly blessed" women (and have been since age 9); I'd give my eye teeth to be much less blessed! I envy my small chested sisters who don't have to worry about back pain and problems, chest muscle issues, or worry about spraining their rib cages from having large endowments.
At faire I've portrayed every social class from Dutchess down to Pub Wench and Pirate. Like Muffin, I own and blatantly display my "What Color Are My Eyes?" and "Yes, They Are Nice" pins (thank you KDopita Studios). Displaying the "girls" a bit more prominently helped out greatly while working the pub. But did I cross over into the "Heavage"? No. I find that as disgusting as the lasses who make goblets disappear between their boobs. When I portrayed a Dutchess, I designed and built my bodice to have 25 pieces of steel boning in it to not only support the girls but to squish them down as much as possible so I didn't look like "boobzilla" about to explode. Being a pirate has freed me from ALOT of issues - the men's shirts I wear hide alot of things ... to the point I was told by a male "You aren't really a woman, you don't have any boobs showing." I did but, thanks to the design of my bodice, the lay of the shirt, and the angle of the bodice trim - I made myself look like I was at most a very full B cup! I chose to take his potentially snide comment as a compliment!
Having done some study on the "norms" of the era (curves meant you had money to buy and eat food and not starve, breasts were not viewed as items of sex adoration - merely a means to feed infants (thanks to the Puritans for making them sex objects), ankles were among the scintillating portions of a woman's anatomy) ... I now crack jokes about being a well fed, well educated, well groomed, and well endowed Rubenesque Woman Pirate ... who delights in wearing men's shirts, pants, boots, belts, and hat!
Have I seen a difference in treatment between thin and curvy women at faire? Actually, yes. Back in my single Rennie days, I was always passed over for the skinny min's baring skin in a Victorian corset. And sadly, there was a time when only skinny girls with "small yet perky" boobs were chosen for roles I'd love to have portrayed. Blessedly attitudes and times have changed - most of the festivals I now frequently perform at seem to have an open acceptance policy/outlook/attitude when it comes to women of all sizes. Sadly, the mundane world still hasn't caught on/caught up with the rennie world. Mundanely, I'm still looked askance at for being <gasp, horror> ... FAT! and for having ... BIG BOOBS! (Oh Mah Gawd, Ethel! Did you see the size of her boobs??? And she's a NURSE for heaven's sake!! What is she thinking? What kind of an example is she??) :o)
Like my fellow "Chesties" I too dress to downplay the girls as much as possible in my mundane life, which is hard to do in most professional dress. However so much of my wardrobe is now chosen for comfortable, chic, figure flattering bagginess rather than "hipness" and "poshness" - if I don't like it - I'm NOT wearing it. If I have to be poured into it, I'm not wearing it! (I just wish I'd learned that lesson back in college when I was on the rodeo team and a wanna be Rodeo Queen! LOL). If I have to have safety pins to ensure my blouse doesn't gap, I'm NOT wearing it - I don't care if it is the latest style or not.
So while I'm sure there are snide remarks flowing back and forth (or even snide attitudes being thrown down); we are all human and flawed after all - remember, the ONLY person you have to please in this life is .... YOURSELF. If you are comfortable with who you are and how you are living - then no one else has the right to make you regret it or feel "less" for your choices and happiness. Those unhappy folks can only make you miserable or feel bad/odd/unwanted/unattractive/subhuman/etc .... if you LET them.
Also, I'd suggest visiting and/or working other faires and festivals out of your area and see what a difference geography can make for you. Each section of the country gives it's festivals a different flavor and "attitude."
Most of all - teach your future daughters that it's okay to be thin, fat, big boobed, flat chested, tall, short, dark headed, light headed ... so long as they are healthy, happy, and content girls. They will grow into strong, bright, well educated, and well rounded women.
I hope this has helped you out in your internal thought processes. Nothing stated here is intended as a slam/flame/trolling of any other person nor is anything said herein aimed at anyone individual or group of individuals. If you feel you have been singled out ... darlin, you need therapy and should seek immediate professional assistance for your narcissistic inclinations ... the world does NOT revolve around you.
It revolves around me ... so get over yourself ;o)
Fair Winds
Emerald
Thank you Charolette for starting this thread. BRAVO Emerald Shaunassey, very well stated!
Quote from: Leyla on May 11, 2010, 09:26:34 AM
Quote from: Charlotte Rowan on April 23, 2010, 09:08:52 AM
And although I mainly came to terms with my body years ago, I can't help feeling a little put down sometimes.
I guess what I'd want to know is, what is it that makes you feel put down? Is it just the general emphasis on cleavage, or are there more personal slights?
Personally, I think sexy is far more about attitude than looks (though looks certainly don't hurt). And it's a matter of emphasizing one's own attributes.
I remember faire last year, there was a very beautiful, thin woman. I have no idea what her front side looked like, but she was wearing a backless outfit and had a gorgeous tattoo. Even without the tattoo, I think the whole backless thing is super sexy since it shows off so much skin not often seen. Plus, while even thin women struggle with a wee bit of belly, or think they need to be super toned in front, their backs are typically wonderful.
No, I've certainly never felt singled out or personally slighted. It's not anything anyone does intentionally - it's really just the overemphasis of boobage. :) How about a metaphor:
Let's say I have blue eyes (I don't, really). And let's say that in our society, most models and actresses have blue eye and the "ideal woman"-- as the media portrayse her-- is blue-eyed. I'm at an event called "Eyes of all Colors" or something, where people believe that eye color is irrelevant to beauty. Everyone at the event makes a point of saying how much they like brown eyes, taking pictures of people with brown eyes, complimenting people on their brown eyes. Maybe a few people are even saying things like, "Blue eyes are overrated," to their brown-eyed friends, and I happen to overhear it. It's not that these people think people with blue eyes are unattractive, but being a blue-eyed person, I might sort of get that impression.
Hello there! I almost feel kinda silly for replying to such an old post but it being official off season since Scarby I've come back to RF.
I can understand how it must feel to feel singled out at faire because of your body type. Faire does embrace a fuller figured woman , but majority of the time all of us are in the real world. In the real world what you have is the desired body for American culture in more ways than just your thin and your breast size. There are commercials everyday for things all women use with only one kind of woman advertising it. Our culture has taught all women we need to be thin, tall, preferably white and blue eyed to be considered beautiful. This concept of beauty has even taken over some other countries. Our dominant society is where you little girl will take majority of her image like all the other little girls in our society.
At faire I'm big breasted and that is glorified but I'm still not accepted even there. I'm a black girl and there are not a lot of black people at any faire I have gone too. Since I have been going people have said to me " you are very pretty for a black girl". I have heard these same words both at faire and in our society. I think the people that say it think that it is a compliment , when really it's hurtful and insulting . It's a comment that says to me black people aren't even expected to be beautiful at all and like a pat on the head "good for you" your a pretty one. If I had it my way I would dress up as a gypsy or belly dancer but after 2 children my stomach is a bunch of saggy skin and stretch marks. The belly dancers I see are mostly thin and beautiful. Some have bigger breast and some don't but they are still beautiful and a big piece of faire as well as the wenches and all with the breast all out.. I would like to go as nobility but I feel awkward about it because another thing i hear at least once or twice a year is " If this was the real renaissance you wouldn't be here." As if I've been living under a rock and I don't know that! Worst part of this is i have heard this from people that are suppost to be my friends. i think it's hard for all women. Alot of our image issues where put on us by men and now today especially most of them are imposed on us by other women competing with each other. I think we as women we need to just learn to love ourselves the way we are and love other women for what they are. A lot of faire women play up their breast because to them that is there best asset and it makes them feel good about themselves. Other women play up there stomachs or legs or whatever it is they are proud of and that's okay. society is a machine trying to program us all and not being sucked in by that is what makes us special. Your little girl is going to be bombarded with it regardless of anywhere she goes its always going to be out there telling her what she is and what shes not just like its' done all the rest of us. i like the way you presented your issue , you seem like a very intelligent and open minded woman and from the picture you are beautiful too. Own that regardless of your bust size and your daughter will learn that confidence from you and fight this society for the right to define her own beauty.
Quote from: isisdy on June 05, 2010, 12:54:12 PM
Hello there! I almost feel kinda silly for replying to such an old post but it being official off season since Scarby I've come back to RF.
I can understand how it must feel to feel singled out at faire because of your body type. Faire does embrace a fuller figured woman , but majority of the time all of us are in the real world. In the real world what you have is the desired body for American culture in more ways than just your thin and your breast size. There are commercials everyday for things all women use with only one kind of woman advertising it. Our culture has taught all women we need to be thin, tall, preferably white and blue eyed to be considered beautiful. This concept of beauty has even taken over some other countries. Our dominant society is where you little girl will take majority of her image like all the other little girls in our society.
At faire I'm big breasted and that is glorified but I'm still not accepted even there. I'm a black girl and there are not a lot of black people at any faire I have gone too. Since I have been going people have said to me " you are very pretty for a black girl". I have heard these same words both at faire and in our society. I think the people that say it think that it is a compliment , when really it's hurtful and insulting . It's a comment that says to me black people aren't even expected to be beautiful at all and like a pat on the head "good for you" your a pretty one. If I had it my way I would dress up as a gypsy or belly dancer but after 2 children my stomach is a bunch of saggy skin and stretch marks. The belly dancers I see are mostly thin and beautiful. Some have bigger breast and some don't but they are still beautiful and a big piece of faire as well as the wenches and all with the breast all out.. I would like to go as nobility but I feel awkward about it because another thing i hear at least once or twice a year is " If this was the real renaissance you wouldn't be here." As if I've been living under a rock and I don't know that! Worst part of this is i have heard this from people that are suppost to be my friends. i think it's hard for all women. Alot of our image issues where put on us by men and now today especially most of them are imposed on us by other women competing with each other. I think we as women we need to just learn to love ourselves the way we are and love other women for what they are. A lot of faire women play up their breast because to them that is there best asset and it makes them feel good about themselves. Other women play up there stomachs or legs or whatever it is they are proud of and that's okay. society is a machine trying to program us all and not being sucked in by that is what makes us special. Your little girl is going to be bombarded with it regardless of anywhere she goes its always going to be out there telling her what she is and what shes not just like its' done all the rest of us. i like the way you presented your issue , you seem like a very intelligent and open minded woman and from the picture you are beautiful too. Own that regardless of your bust size and your daughter will learn that confidence from you and fight this society for the right to define her own beauty.
Just my two cents, from your profile pic: you make a LOVELY fae! I love the colors you picked. They really make you stand out and glow. Don't let anyone make you feel like you don't belong---they're just jealous! Some people pull off different characters better than others, but it basically comes down to if they're comfortable dressing the way they're dressing that makes the ultimate impression.
Ooooo Antoinette... preachin to the choir girl LOL!
Rant Alert
Stuff our daughters need to know;
Fashion models are selling clothing. They are glorified hangers. I (personally) don't want to be anything like a coat rack.
Beauty models are selling makeup products. Some of them actually have latex masks under the airbrushed finish of the photo to smooth & perfect the face.
The modern day media image of perfection is ridiculously impossible to obtain. Again, the entire goal is to sell a product.
Photography tricks abound to alter the image into the desired result, shooting 'up' to gain height, foggy filters to soften edges - not to mention photo processing to correct color and contrast.
Don't Buy Into the Myth!
{End Rant}
Now, back to our original posted subject, I also felt, for a short time, that the cleavage was all. However, as I met more & more Rennies (thanks! R/F.com!) my experience changed that belief. All ladies projecting a positive self-image seemed to be surrounded by attentive gentlemen. Although yes, for the first time in my life, I actually do have cleavage, it does not compare to the majority of what can be seen if you look around. The most remarkable story is about the slender & petite gal with next to no fluff at all, but a fun loving attitude and outgoing personality - guess who is never without guys just lined up for a chance with her! The same goes for some goddess sized gals.
There will always be some fools who care nothing for aught but image and they are not worth notice.
So, bottom line - Comparison = BAD
Great Self-Image = GOOD
Very simply put--
Walk into a room (or faire) like you own it.
And when you do, you won't give a rat's arse about image or what anyone thinks.
"...you are very pretty for a black girl..."
Dear Antoinette, that phrase has no place in any society, must less at a faire. It is, most unfortunately, the babbling of a complete fool when it is spoken. I've never noticed the racial breakdown at faire, because I am colour blind to such things. I work at a university with so much diversity among the student body that it just doesn't matter to me. Even the college I went to some 40 years ago was so diverse, race and ethnicity just wasn't any big deal.
It is so sad that in the last 50+ years that so little progress has been made. I lived in Little Rock during the fracas there in `57. I implore you to hold your head high and maintain your dignity in the face of such comments. People that make them don't deserve the satisfaction of "getting to you."
Thank you guys. It's the people like you all that make me enjoy faire as I do. For the most part I really don't let it get to me , I push it down far ,smile big and enjoy the day. It usually doesn't come back to me until I'm in the shower where I seem to do most of my reflecting for the day. I'm good at handling stuff like that , sadly as I've gone through life it's been so common that the more i hear it the less it hurts. I feel worst for them though because those kind of ideas really hurt there chances of getting to know people and really and truly enjoying their own lives.