There were rumors flying about last year that in 2008 peace tied weapons would be allowed. Does anyone know if this is true? I was unable to find any information regarding any policies on the new 2008Michigan Renfest site.
Also, anyone know (even if the weapons policy for this year is the same as previous years) if bows and arrows (with no heads) are allowed?
I'm considering adding a sword and bow to my persona, however I don't want to spend the cash if neither are allowed at festival.
Thanks in advance!
Eric
Peace tied weapons will be allowed.
I received the below email from Debra with Marketing / Promotions and this is what she said...
"...we will be allowing PEACE TIED weapons and Bow and Arrows without heads. I checked with our General Manager and she confirms that this is true."
Huzzahs and Kudos to you, Sir.
You called the office -- you wisely WENT TO THE SOURCE and got the official word.
well done. ;D
They're letting them in this year?
Wow.
GOD'S TEETH!!!
Graphicknight!! Kudos to you for going to the faire management and getting your question answered instead of relying on the usual slew of "Well, I heard..." and "Well last year I got in" type rumors.
Thanks for posting the information for others as well.
If this is true YAHOO!
Ever since the end of faire last year this rumor has been discussed many times and relentlessly, and always it was unresolved because of no official word. So heres to you for doing what should have been done months ago.
But I am excited that we can finally bring our weapons in. With all the extravagant outfits at faire it would deffently be interesting to see how people outfit them with a blade.
First, a disclaimer.....The views expressed below are not those of Michigan Renaissance Festival Management but are my own interpretation and opinions on this matter. No endorsement of Michigan Renaissance Festival Management is implied or intended.
Please keep in mind the standard RenFest definition of "Peace Tied" - the weapon in question (Dagger, Rapier, Broadsword, Claymore, etc) is IN A SHEATH and secured in such a way that IT CANNOT BE REMOVED from said sheath. The most standard way to achieve this is with a strong NYLON ZIP TIE wrapped around or through the Dagger or Sword hilt and through either a hole punched in the sheath or wrapped around the belt the sheath is attached to. This, the way I understand it, is what MiRF Management desires and what MiRF Security will be checking, looking for, and enforcing.
With that in mind, this year you may see those of us in the MiRF Guild of Grunt (Fight Team) walking around Faire with weapons that are not zip tied as described above but secured with a leather strip or thick lacing that is merely bow-tied or otherwise knotted. This is because we have shows to perform with those weapons (specially made for stage combat) and need quick access to them. We have been authorized to carry our weapons on our person secured in that manner. We have been trained on this matter and are responsible for the safety of said weapon, it never leaves our side or our hand(s) during the time Faire is open. This policy of non-zip tied weapons DOES NOT APPLY to anyone outside the MiRF Guild of Grunt, regardless of whatever training or experience you may have with stage combat or other weapons.
Please understand the rules and policies regarding weapons are created and enforced for the safety of EVERYONE at Faire, Cast and Patron alike, as well as to comply with the Festival's insurance carrier and whatever local laws exist.
We look forward to a fun season at MiRF with everyone, Patron and Cast alike, being able to display their own originality with costuming and accoutrements that are not only beautiful to look at but safe for everyone.
Sir William Sargent
Royal Court Ensemble
Guild of Grunt
Michigan Renaissance Festival
Faire managent annouced the change to allowing peace tied weapons at rehearsal yesterday. They will be doing the zip tying, with colors that have meaning. Season pass holders will get one color, cast another, etc. So, it's pretty dang official when the security talks to the cast about it.
Congratulations, folks!
I wish they'd carry this over down here at BARF!
Never know. For those of us with a persona that really should have a blade on our waist... this is a great thing.
Quote from: Count Adolfo on June 08, 2008, 11:11:40 PM
For those of us with a persona that really should have a blade on our waist... this is a great thing.
Also means we lasses can now ask: Is that your sword or are you just happy to see me?
:-*
Quote from: Margaret on June 09, 2008, 05:16:08 AM
Also means we lasses can now ask: Is that your sword or are you just happy to see me?
:-*
My Goode Lady Margaret, one be ALWAYS glad to see thee!
(Nay, 'tis not myne sword, Goodly Wench, we be very happy to see thee and standing at attention for thy inspection!)
:-*
Quote from: Sir William Sargent on June 07, 2008, 11:20:10 PM
With that in mind, this year you may see those of us in the MiRF Guild of Grunt (Fight Team) walking around Faire with weapons that are not zip tied as described above but secured with a leather strip or thick lacing that is merely bow-tied or otherwise knotted. This is because we have shows to perform with those weapons (specially made for stage combat) and need quick access to them. We have been authorized to carry our weapons on our person secured in that manner.
You know, if you hadn't mentioned it, I'll bet very few, if any, will have noticed the difference as you pass by.
However....
I will digress at this time, my good sir, and make small mention of a purchase I have recently made specifically with your sword in mind.
I'll say little more.... but that I (and whatever other ladies may be handy) intend to make good use of it this season. As often as time and circum........stance allows. ;D
Humpff! I was one of those "well, last year I got in..." rumor mongers. I had thought that the photographic evidence I posted at the time, on those threads, should have been enough to sway some to believe in my credibility.
Sorry, my pride was a little dinted. In my line of mundane work, credibility with evidence is everything. I'll move on....
Huzzah to the Faire for allowing for this great step of progress. And Thank You, nliedel, for posting the confirmation from the cast meeting. This should put all else to rest.
The key now is to make sure that this goes off without a hitch. I know that I am preaching to the converted here, but every step should be taken to ensure that there are no problems. Please, follow whatever rules are set out. Do not, for any reason, remove the peace ties whilst on the grounds. Even after you leave, do not draw your steel until you are at your chariot, ready to stow it away safely. Do not feel the need, just because staff cut off the ties when leaving, think that signifies the necessity for a clashing of swords in the parking fields.
It is key that there are no negative incidents of note regarding playtrons carrying weapons. Only in this way can we show the MiRF management that they have made a good decision, and that this is a good path to follow.
Although staff will be zip tying weapons, I plan to trump their efforts. Upon my arrival at the gate, my steel (each piece of it) will already be secured into their sheaths, and also to their frogs, with an industrial zip-tie, one of the ones with an aluminum band in the middle of the plastic. That I plan to cover with a strip of leather about ¾ of and inch wide. I will remove the leather at the gate for inspection. After seeing what I had done, should they feel the need to affix a second tie, all the better! I can go about the faire knowing that there is no way an ill-timed draw of a weapon could ever be attributed to me.
Robert, please don't take umbrage. I did not mean anyone specifically - I just know in the last thread on the old board there were several "Well, I did..." and "Well, I could.." type stuff tossed around. With nothing like your photographice evidence to back it up.
And the rest of your post was spot on. This is the first time in several years that MIRF will allow peace tied weapons. Let's keep it safe out there.
Other faire goers who do not visit this site where questioning the use of color code zip ties wondering if they why the color code is it to prevent certain folk from buying a beer or is this some status thing?
Quote from: Katie Bookwench on June 10, 2008, 12:00:41 PM
I will digress at this time, my good sir, and make small mention of a purchase I have recently made specifically with your sword in mind.
I'll say little more.... but that I (and whatever other ladies may be handy) intend to make good use of it this season. As often as time and circum........stance allows. ;D
My Goode Bookwench, myne "sword" be e'er ready and waiting for thee and any other "handy" ladies.
So be to whet thy appetite (and show to others the object of thy fancy), here be the glorious sword thy hath in mind.....
(http://a425.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/61/l_e0072501099913261083eff4494e9710.jpg)
Note, Goode Gentles, the shape of the pommell end.
I shall leave it to thy imagination as much as the Bookwench's.
Quote from: max and kate on June 11, 2008, 10:17:48 AM
Other faire goers who do not visit this site where questioning the use of color code zip ties wondering if they why the color code is it to prevent certain folk from buying a beer or is this some status thing?
My only objection to this quote is "why the color is it to prevent certain folk from buying a beer..." I do not doubt reason for the color coding has a purpose I do doubt that it is to regulate beer consumption. Two reasons, first I do not know of any faire that use color code but if they did it would not be use to regulate alcohol consumption since all fairs do that with or with out the consumer possessing a blade. Second money is in the the consumption of alcohol, we have people who pay the ticket fee and start to pay into the consumption of alcohol which is big money bigger then any vendor could produce. I doubt, especially considering the owner of the faire (by rumor), that he would ever retard that form of income.
On a side note beside my rebuttal, MIRF does have history of weapon policy that could easily promote a no weapon policy and this year would be a big year to say hey we can handle it. So any renny would with no doubt behave to show we can carry weapons responsibly. With that in mind the percentage of mundanes carrying weapons, including those ignorant of MIRF weapon policy history, would be of a small percentage to grant a poor presentation of weapon policy. To be frank I believe the over paranoia or fear of removing the promoted weapon policy is irrational and can ruin the enjoyment. Even if it goes back to the accepted norm we already proved MIRF can be an incredible faire and no weapon polciy could ever change that.
Quote from: max and kate on June 11, 2008, 10:17:48 AM
Other faire goers who do not visit this site where questioning the use of color code zip ties wondering if they why the color code is it to prevent certain folk from buying a beer or is this some status thing?
Who knows why they chose to use different colors. Seems as if it would complicate things. However, I highly doubt it has anything to do with alcohol consumption or that all the 'cool kids' will have red zip ties or something like that.
They did not much discuss the color coding, so I can't speak to that. Just that season pass holders, who are gold to us, get a special color and cast members do as well. It did not appear to have anything to do with beer consumption, which we discussed as a major profit maker for the faire. Not in a negative way, but we did talk about protection from the massivly drunk and grabby. Big place, barely dressed women, drunk people. You get that there could be an issue :)
It seemed to me, and again I am a first year and know nothing, to have nothing to do with booze.
Some Faires will place a colored bracelet on those who show ID at the gate, allowing them to be served alcohol throughout the day. Another color for the volunteer cast, another for merchants or their guests, still another for those cast members who are paid. These tell staff/security/management who is whom, who can/should/should not be in restricted areas. One or two Faires use colored zip ties as a bracelet, just becasue they are a cheap way of doing it. This practice does not seem to have anything to do with the purpose or meaning of peace-ties. They just happen to use the same tool for different purpose.
Quote from: robert of armstrong on June 12, 2008, 07:52:43 AM
Some Faires will place a colored bracelet on those who show ID at the gate, allowing them to be served alcohol throughout the day. Another color for the volunteer cast, another for merchants or their guests, still another for those cast members who are paid. These tell staff/security/management who is whom, who can/should/should not be in restricted areas. One or two Faires use colored zip ties as a bracelet, just becasue they are a cheap way of doing it. This practice does not seem to have anything to do with the purpose or meaning of peace-ties. They just happen to use the same tool for different purpose.
O I agree with part of your statement we are all in agreement that the color coding process has a purpose and I look down upon the fool who feels otherwise. But it in no ways has anything to do with alcohol consumption. To even bring up the the idea that alcohol plays a part in this policy is both irrational on illogical. The variables involve make the matter so complex that removing the variable of alcohol actually makes the reality of piece tied weapons plausible. To assume color coded peace ties is used to grant or deny access or consumption to areas or alcohol is irrational. For in order for that system to work every person must be carrying a weapon and we know that will not happen.
Instead of coming up with uneducated conjectures as to the purpose of color coding peace ties we should just accept that the code serve an unknown purpose and we should accept the rule and have another great faire season.
Quote from: Sir William Sargent on June 11, 2008, 11:24:39 PMI will digress at this time, my good sir, and make small mention of a purchase I have recently made specifically with your sword in mind.
Note, Goode Gentles, the shape of the pommell end.
I shall leave it to thy imagination as much as the Bookwench's.
Yes, yes...very nice and all that.... it's a long metal flat rod with a pointy end and a fancy-schmancy handle. Good for you, m'lad, good for you. Give it a bit of a swing about, and treat yourself to a cucumber sandwich. :P
Just remember that old addage that says: my quill pen is mightier. ;D
/
neener!
Even with the peace tying of the blades, I would suggest to everyone that they keep "weapon retention" in mind and practice it while wearing said weapon(s). By that I mean not leaving the weapon completely exposed to anyone who decides they want to grab it. A good way of keeping the weapon protected from "grabby" people is by leaving a hand or arm draped over it as much as possible so that someone has to move your arm to get to your weapon.
I have had many instances where patrons have come up to me and grabbed and pulled on my costume without my permission either out of curiosity or because they think it might be funny. I certainly wouldn't want them pulling on my weapons even if they were secured with a zip-tie. I think it would just be a good habit to get into and would be an extra bit of a precautionary measure.
Quote from: Lord Pumpernickel on June 13, 2008, 03:02:08 AM
O I agree with part of your statement we are all in agreement that the color coding process has a purpose and I look down upon the fool who feels otherwise. But it in no ways has anything to do with alcohol consumption. To even bring up the the idea that alcohol plays a part in this policy is both irrational on illogical. The variables involve make the matter so complex that removing the variable of alcohol actually makes the reality of piece tied weapons plausible. To assume color coded peace ties is used to grant or deny access or consumption to areas or alcohol is irrational. For in order for that system to work every person must be carrying a weapon and we know that will not happen.
Instead of coming up with uneducated conjectures as to the purpose of color coding peace ties we should just accept that the code serve an unknown purpose and we should accept the rule and have another great faire season.
I was trying to enlighten regarding examples where different colored ties may be used, other than Peace Tying. I know that when I visited a Faire two years ago (I can't remember if it were Pensylvania RF or Ohio RF), I tried to buy a mug of beer, but was denied, and told to go back to the gate, show my ID and get a bracelet. At the gate I showed my ID, but they said that they didn't have any of the paper adhisive bracelets left, so they put a red zip tie on my wrist instead, and I had no problem ordering a mead or two after that. It was just one example. I'm not saying this is the only application, nor the one that MiRF will use, or if they will even use a color system. And if they did, I have better things to do than try to decode it.
That being said....
I agree wholeheartedly with Black Armor, that even with peace ties, each person carrying needs to be responsible for their weapon. Before attending the Faire, if you are not familiar with weapon retention, try strapping on you steel, and get comfortable wearing it. Get familiar with the idea that your hand is the only one that will be touching its handle. If it is a blade on you hip, get used to resting your weak hand on it's pommel. This happens naturally to most people, and becomes almost second nature quickly, like having your hand on you hip on in your pocket. If you are carrying another type of weapon, put it on ahead of time and get used to the idea that it's retention is your responsibility.
But beyond that, have some forthought as to your peace tie. Even if a tie will be affixed at the gate, that weapon is your responsibility. Although I am sure they will do a great job of securing your weapon for you, you should not rely on others for something you should take responsibility for yourself. I suggest that you peace tie your weapon as well, before the gate, and in a manner such that even if you were not able to stop some ignorant fool from getting hold of the grip, that there would be no way for that weapon could be pulled from it's home without a pair of nippers or wire cutters.
As well, while you are practicing wearing your steel, become aware of the space you are now taking up. You weapon may stick out behind you a distance of 2-3 feet, depending on the application. Be aware of this as you practice manouvering around your house wearing you steel, trying not to know things over. This will help you as you enter shops and booths at the Faire. If your weapon knocks something over, be prepared to pay for it.
Carrying steel in the Shire is a privledge, and along with it comes responsibilities. Safety and consideration for others should be paramount. If you feel, for whatever reason you cannot uphold the burdens associated with carrying your steel at a Faire, I suggest that you reconsider the thought of carrying at all.
I totally agree with Black Armor and Robert of Armstrong - even if your weapon is peace-tied you should still be conscious of and responsible for it.
In my past three years of doing Faires and many promos, I've never had someone try to grab my weapon. I credit this largely a result of me nearly always having my left hand either resting on the pommell or actually holding the grip. The latter I tend to do more, especially in crowded lanes or shops, so I can maneuver my "tail" (scabbard) out of the way of people and things. It's the very FIRST thing I teach people about carrying a weapon - never forget you have 3 foot hard tail! When standing in a crowd or near an area with a lot of moving people, I've also learned to tuck my scabbard behind my left leg and in front of my right (sort of like tucking my tail between my legs) so as not to trip anyone who may pass by. This is easiest with a hanging sword frog or sword hanger, more difficult to do if you use a sword frog that attaches very close to your belt or just have your scabbard tucked under your belt.
With a little research, thought, and practice, you'll find what works best to keep your weapon, yourself, and those around you safe.
Although I dare not agree with your reasoning and and precautions of carrying a weapon into faire. I do believe that it is an over statement of the natural reality. To put forth the statistics/physics and apply mathematics to the possibility of someone else stealing your weapon while peace tied is minimum and nearly ignorable. To think someone will steal your blade while peaced tied is stupid and irrational. And very rare is it that one forgets about the extended length of their blade that can hit others. I have yet to hear of a complaint of someone else's miss carriage of a weapon.
True what we are granted is a privileged and we should prove we can handle the responsibility of carrying a weapon. When does it come to a point though we become overly worried that we destroy the enjoyment of the privilege and make the chore so hard to be exstreamly responsible that it annihilates the entire purpose of carrying the weapon.
Quote from: Lord Pumpernickel on June 15, 2008, 03:33:46 AM
Although I dare not agree with your reasoning and and precautions of carrying a weapon into faire. I do believe that it is an over statement of the natural reality. To put forth the statistics/physics and apply mathematics to the possibility of someone else stealing your weapon while peace tied is minimum and nearly ignorable. To think someone will steal your blade while peaced tied is stupid and irrational. And very rare is it that one forgets about the extended length of their blade that can hit others. I have yet to hear of a complaint of someone else's miss carriage of a weapon.
True what we are granted is a privileged and we should prove we can handle the responsibility of carrying a weapon. When does it come to a point though we become overly worried that we destroy the enjoyment of the privilege and make the chore so hard to be exstreamly responsible that it annihilates the entire purpose of carrying the weapon.
While I do agree that the incidence for folks trying to grab blades left and right is more likely low I do have to agree that walking in a crowd with a sword strapped to your side will take practice and something people who are not used to carrying weapons will have to be aware of.
Yes, I'll grant you the chance is remote of someone attempting to steal your weapon, peace-tied or not, nor have I heard many complaints resulting from miss-handled sword scabbards. Anyone who carries a weapon, though, should err on the side of caution. Those of us under contract by a Festival, for legal reasons, must be aware of our actions and how they may affect a patron, fellow performer, or vendor. It's unfortunate we must expend thought to such matters but in the litigation-happy times we live it is a necessity. Just another element to weave into one's character and maintain throughout a day of Faire, making it a challenge and keeping things interesting.
Quote from: Lord Pumpernickel on June 15, 2008, 03:33:46 AM
the possibility of someone else stealing your weapon while peace tied is minimum and nearly ignorable. To think someone will steal your blade while peaced tied is stupid and irrational.
And very rare is it that one forgets about the extended length of their blade that can hit others. I have yet to hear of a complaint of someone else's miss carriage of a weapon.
Seriously?
First, your first statement:
In all the peace-tie debates of old (from the old forums), the main argument against allowing weapons at Faires almost always reverted back to cases where weapons have been grabbed by a mundane who thought it would be funny/clever/whatever to take staff member's or playtron's weapon and wave it around, possibly injuring anothyer person. If this happens, no more weapons, period. Although mathematically the risk of having someone disarm another may be low, giving advice on futher minimizing risk is always a good idea. What you are saying is that I am suggesting that people be too safe. I'm not sure that is possible, especially where weapons and public places are involved. To sugest that we ignore the risk that someone else may be irresponsible and do something dangerous is irresponsible in and of itself. To suggest people ignore that possiblility is foolhardy at best. Better to be safe than to be one of the defendants in a lawsuit where your weapon was used by another to injure someone.
And, your second statement:
I have had the good fortune to visit Faires for a few years with weapons-friendly and peace tie policies. I have seen, and been vicitm of, people who have forgotten about their "hard tail" (never thought of it that way). I have been struck on the legs by other's scabbards as they turn around without consideration. Yes, it was a minor hit, just an inconvieniece, but one I could do without. And if it happens to me several times a visit, I can only imagine I am not the only one being struck by accident. And I have seen booths with breakables knocked over, with disasterous consequences. Would you expect the vendor to cover the cost of your forgetfulness? If you were the vendor, would you tell someone who broke several hundred dollars of you wares with their scabbard that it was okay, that you would eat the cost?
Unless I am missing something, I am being chastized for preparing some who have not have the experience of carrying to be aware of themselves, their environment, and the consequences. I want there to be no complaints stemming from the new weapons policy. Not a mathematically insignificant number of complaints, but zero. See, compaints are things that get things taken away, and I hope that the new weapons policy works out perfectly so it can be a permanent fixture.
Sorry for thinking that a little preparation before hand wouldn't be too much to ask.
Our cast carries wonderous ID badges complete with our photos on them. So wrist ties are not used. Thank the gods, cause It would doth ruin the line of my garb. Not really, but I hate those things. Reminds me of being in the ER.
Quote from: robert of armstrong on June 15, 2008, 03:55:16 PM
Quote from: Lord Pumpernickel on June 15, 2008, 03:33:46 AM
the possibility of someone else stealing your weapon while peace tied is minimum and nearly ignorable. To think someone will steal your blade while peaced tied is stupid and irrational.
And very rare is it that one forgets about the extended length of their blade that can hit others. I have yet to hear of a complaint of someone else's miss carriage of a weapon.
Seriously?
First, your first statement:
In all the peace-tie debates of old (from the old forums), the main argument against allowing weapons at Faires almost always reverted back to cases where weapons have been grabbed by a mundane who thought it would be funny/clever/whatever to take staff member's or playtron's weapon and wave it around, possibly injuring anothyer person. If this happens, no more weapons, period. Although mathematically the risk of having someone disarm another may be low, giving advice on futher minimizing risk is always a good idea. What you are saying is that I am suggesting that people be too safe. I'm not sure that is possible, especially where weapons and public places are involved. To sugest that we ignore the risk that someone else may be irresponsible and do something dangerous is irresponsible in and of itself. To suggest people ignore that possiblility is foolhardy at best. Better to be safe than to be one of the defendants in a lawsuit where your weapon was used by another to injure someone.
And, your second statement:
I have had the good fortune to visit Faires for a few years with weapons-friendly and peace tie policies. I have seen, and been vicitm of, people who have forgotten about their "hard tail" (never thought of it that way). I have been struck on the legs by other's scabbards as they turn around without consideration. Yes, it was a minor hit, just an inconvieniece, but one I could do without. And if it happens to me several times a visit, I can only imagine I am not the only one being struck by accident. And I have seen booths with breakables knocked over, with disasterous consequences. Would you expect the vendor to cover the cost of your forgetfulness? If you were the vendor, would you tell someone who broke several hundred dollars of you wares with their scabbard that it was okay, that you would eat the cost?
Unless I am missing something, I am being chastized for preparing some who have not have the experience of carrying to be aware of themselves, their environment, and the consequences. I want there to be no complaints stemming from the new weapons policy. Not a mathematically insignificant number of complaints, but zero. See, compaints are things that get things taken away, and I hope that the new weapons policy works out perfectly so it can be a permanent fixture.
Sorry for thinking that a little preparation before hand wouldn't be too much to ask.
I completely agree with Robert of Armstrong. When hubby decided to try wearing his sword with his garb, it took him quite a while to get used to the additional weight and to turn and maneouver in different ways so as not to hit people or things. And I, too, have seen people, new to wearing swords, move very awkwardly. Wearing a sword, even a fairly light and/or short one, takes quite a bit of getting used to, so much so, that I've decided to leave it off my pirate outfit entirely.
Quote from: Lord Pumpernickel on June 15, 2008, 03:33:46 AM
Although I dare not agree with your reasoning and and precautions of carrying a weapon into faire. I do believe that it is an over statement of the natural reality. To put forth the statistics/physics and apply mathematics to the possibility of someone else stealing your weapon while peace tied is minimum and nearly ignorable. To think someone will steal your blade while peaced tied is stupid and irrational.......
True what we are granted is a privileged and we should prove we can handle the responsibility of carrying a weapon. When does it come to a point though we become overly worried that we destroy the enjoyment of the privilege and make the chore so hard to be exstreamly responsible that it annihilates the entire purpose of carrying the weapon.
I would suspect that your young age indicates inexperience as it pertains to the proper and responsible carrying of weapons at faire and you are just the person that this discussion is meant to educate.
I made my statement as someone who carries a weapon every day as required by my profession. I am well trained in "weapon retention" and well versed in the reasons for practicing it. I personally have never had someone try to disarm me in the 10 years since I started in my profession but I am always aware that the possibility exists and have made it second nature to be aware and protective of my weapon at all times. I do this not because I believe that everyone I meet is going to try to grab my weapon but because I realize that the possibility is always there and if that possibility becomes a reality, I am the one who is responsible. I think that anyone carrying a weapon at faire should have a similar mentality even if the weapon is peace tied. If they do, we will most certainly have an incident free faire. I am happy that MiRF will be allowing weapons and I think that it will add to the enjoyment of our costumes.
With that said, I am in no way trying to suggest that someone who wears a blade into faire is going be knocked down and their blade wrestled from its sheath. The point I was trying to make is that people should realize that even though they are wearing a blade for fun and entertainment and as part of a costume, it is none the less a weapon and should be treated accordingly. Treat your weapon as if it were not peace tied. I cannot fathom that someone would strap any kind of weapon to their hip for any reason and then have the attitude that they don't need to be responsible for it.
Lord Pumpernickel, you stated that, "what we are granted is a privilege and we should prove we can handle the responsibility of carrying a weapon". That is absolutely correct; however, your next statement implies that actually acting responsibly is so much of a burden for you that it destroys your enjoyment and "annihilates the entire purpose of carrying the weapon". If this is true then I would suggest that you and anyone else who thinks this way leave your weapons at home or carry wooden ones.
As it has been stated many times that it only takes one person, one incident to ruin things for everyone and I am sure that peoples' behavior will be closely scrutinized this season. If (god forbid) there is an incident, I can guarantee it won't involve someone like Robert of Armstrong, Sir William Sargent, myself or anyone else who carries a weapon responsibly and in the manner that we are suggesting. It most certainly will involve someone who is lax with the security of their weapon and who believes that the possibility of an incident occurring is "minimum and nearly ignorable" and giving any forethought to it is "stupid and irrational".
Quote from: Black Armor on June 16, 2008, 12:04:04 PM
Quote from: Lord Pumpernickel on June 15, 2008, 03:33:46 AM
Although I dare not agree with your reasoning and and precautions of carrying a weapon into faire. I do believe that it is an over statement of the natural reality. To put forth the statistics/physics and apply mathematics to the possibility of someone else stealing your weapon while peace tied is minimum and nearly ignorable. To think someone will steal your blade while peaced tied is stupid and irrational.......
True what we are granted is a privileged and we should prove we can handle the responsibility of carrying a weapon. When does it come to a point though we become overly worried that we destroy the enjoyment of the privilege and make the chore so hard to be exstreamly responsible that it annihilates the entire purpose of carrying the weapon.
I would suspect that your young age indicates inexperience as it pertains to the proper and responsible carrying of weapons at faire and you are just the person that this discussion is meant to educate.
I made my statement as someone who carries a weapon every day as required by my profession. I am well trained in "weapon retention" and well versed in the reasons for practicing it. I personally have never had someone try to disarm me in the 10 years since I started in my profession but I am always aware that the possibility exists and have made it second nature to be aware and protective of my weapon at all times. I do this not because I believe that everyone I meet is going to try to grab my weapon but because I realize that the possibility is always there and if that possibility becomes a reality, I am the one who is responsible. I think that anyone carrying a weapon at faire should have a similar mentality even if the weapon is peace tied. If they do, we will most certainly have an incident free faire. I am happy that MiRF will be allowing weapons and I think that it will add to the enjoyment of our costumes.
With that said, I am in no way trying to suggest that someone who wears a blade into faire is going be knocked down and their blade wrestled from its sheath. The point I was trying to make is that people should realize that even though they are wearing a blade for fun and entertainment and as part of a costume, it is none the less a weapon and should be treated accordingly. Treat your weapon as if it were not peace tied. I cannot fathom that someone would strap any kind of weapon to their hip for any reason and then have the attitude that they don't need to be responsible for it.
Lord Pumpernickel, you stated that, "what we are granted is a privilege and we should prove we can handle the responsibility of carrying a weapon". That is absolutely correct; however, your next statement implies that actually acting responsibly is so much of a burden for you that it destroys your enjoyment and "annihilates the entire purpose of carrying the weapon". If this is true then I would suggest that you and anyone else who thinks this way leave your weapons at home or carry wooden ones.
As it has been stated many times that it only takes one person, one incident to ruin things for everyone and I am sure that peoples' behavior will be closely scrutinized this season. If (god forbid) there is an incident, I can guarantee it won't involve someone like Robert of Armstrong, Sir William Sargent, myself or anyone else who carries a weapon responsibly and in the manner that we are suggesting. It most certainly will involve someone who is lax with the security of their weapon and who believes that the possibility of an incident occurring is "minimum and nearly ignorable" and giving any forethought to it is "stupid and irrational".
Well said indeed.
Quote from: Lord Pumpernickel on June 15, 2008, 03:33:46 AM
To think someone will steal your blade while peaced tied is stupid and irrational.
Not true. There are lots of instances of people trying to draw or grab other people's blades. Wether or not they are peace-tied makes no difference. People can still be hurt by an attempt to draw a peace-tied blade.
Quote from: Lord Pumpernickel on June 15, 2008, 03:33:46 AMAnd very rare is it that one forgets about the extended length of their blade that can hit others. I have yet to hear of a complaint of someone else's miss carriage of a weapon.
Again, not true. I have been whacked in the shin or knees with people's sheaths on more than one occasion. And if it's knee level on
me, it's face level on a toddler. With 20-30 THOUSAND people at fair on a given day, care must be given by everyone who carries a blade as they move through the crowds or someone will get hit-- at least once. And once is more than enough.
It is the same with women and hoop skirts. I can tell you from my own experience that I forget over the off season just how much space that takes up. I have been known to hit things with it--and a set of hoops are more likely to
brush rather than
smack a knee or a child if I forget and get careless while on site.
Then lets add in a little alcohol to the mix.... it can make a person forget things like having a 'hard tail.' This includes those who are normally conscientious with their blades. The Pubs are crowded....so extra care must be taken here as well.
Quote from: Lord Pumpernickel on June 15, 2008, 03:33:46 AM
True what we are granted is a privileged and we should prove we can handle the responsibility of carrying a weapon. When does it come to a point though we become overly worried that we destroy the enjoyment of the privilege and make the chore so hard to be exstreamly responsible that it annihilates the entire purpose of carrying the weapon.
I don't think there's much danger with that....at least, for most people. With a little practice, though, all these 'arduous' trouble-preventing measures will seem second nature to you, and the status symbol of carrying steel will once again be worth it.
My Friends,
It appears that we may have had a "Troll" post to this thread in the guise of Lord Pumpernickel. He has not responded even once to the several replies since his last post, typical Troll behavior.
I put it to you that WE are in the majority and the right here (and we all know it) and HE is in the definite minority and clearly in the wrong (and he knows it). We will carry our weapons, gladly accept whatever peace-tied provision is enforced, act like adults and accept full responsibility for carrying our weapon, and, most importantly, HAVE FUN AT FAIRE!
Waste not another braincell, breathe, or keystroke debating Lord Pumpernickel's inane posts and consider this matter of the MiRF Weapons Policy well discussed and closed (three pages is quite enough I think). I put it to you all - END this thread here and now, we have MUCH more enjoyable topics of which to open threads and have discussions.
End of Regimental Rant (and hopefully this thread).
Sir William Sargent
Having doth been duly chastised and not intending to carry a blade upon my person, since I would only end up stabbing myself, and believe me, I would, I doth do agree that tis time to move on to better and sunnier discussions. Perhaps about which blades those of you who carry same will wear about your person?
My own blade is a fifteen pound broadsword that I would not carry with me. My dress is fifteen pounds. That alone is enough for this lass.
In any case Sir William has the right of it, Fun at the Faire!!!!!! Although without my ale (cast member), it will be a fun of a mightily different sort this year. :)
Does anyone know where I could get a copy of the exact policy. I was going to e-mail someone, but can't find an e-mail MiRF's website. My male cohorts were very excited when I told them they could wear their weapons to faire this year. But there are a couple things I want to clarify. For instance, is ok to cover up the ziptie or must it remain visible? And my dear brother, is doing a sort of viking/barbarian garb this year. He'd like to wear his battle axe, but I have feeling battle axes are still not allowed because they can be sheathed.
Quote from: serenamoonsilver on June 19, 2008, 08:42:31 AM
Does anyone know where I could get a copy of the exact policy. I was going to e-mail someone, but can't find an e-mail on MiRF's website.
Serenamoonsilver,
I don't know if they have the Weapons Policy for 2008 put to paper yet but try calling the MiRF Office at 800-601-4848, I'm sure someone there can answer your questions and/or e-mail you something.
We look forward to seeing you and your Viking hoard at MiRF!
Sir William Sargent
MiRF Resident Cast
Agreed Sir William....
Quote from: serenamoonsilver on June 19, 2008, 08:42:31 AM
And my dear brother, is doing a sort of viking/barbarian garb this year. He'd like to wear his battle axe, but I have feeling battle axes are still not allowed because they can be sheathed.
Good question. I was thinking about wearing an axe because I thought it might be a little lighter and easier to carry, which would help since my costume is about 80 lbs already. I believe I could make a nice sheath for it that would allow it to be secured with a peace tie though.
I've seen some really good covers for axes made out of leather, but danged if I remember where. Which is less than helpfull, I know. If you can work with leather it should be easy to create one that would cover the blade and snap around the handle.
Quote from: Sir William Sargent on June 19, 2008, 12:27:58 AM
End of Regimental Rant
Sir William Sargent
What? Sir William, you're....
REGIMENTAL?!?!
:o
QUICK!! Get that man some boxers!!! ;D
Quote from: Sir William Sargent on June 19, 2008, 10:00:04 AM
We look forward to seeing you and your Viking hoard at MiRF!
It's not so much a hoard, just my brother. Though he's quite a big guy, maybe he counts as hoard all by himself ;D
Thank you for the number, Sir William.
Quote from: serenamoonsilver on June 20, 2008, 08:31:49 AM
Quote from: Sir William Sargent on June 19, 2008, 10:00:04 AM
We look forward to seeing you and your Viking hoard at MiRF!
It's not so much a hoard, just my brother. Though he's quite a big guy, maybe he counts as hoard all by himself ;D
Sounds like my sister, Mary Jane, who's a crowd all by
herself....
:D
/looks around, making sure Mary Jane's not in earshot.
Ya know - here's me seeing "hoard" and thinking you were going in an entirely different direction. ;D
She *IS* a lass of myth and lore.
Well the troll has awakened and I do apologize for not responding to the thread when I was quoted life has been busy and I don't check this forum all the time. I also do feel that my bold statements have put a bad taste in some people's mouth about me and I do not want that. I enjoy the people of the Renaissance Forums and do not want to be alienated. So I guess I have to address some of the issues concerning my posts.
First better to understand me. It is my life passion to study both philosophy and theology and debate the two. Over time I have formulated a sort of Scientific Philosophy mostly focusing on fallacies. It sort of made me stern on those ideas and very enthusiastic to point them out, which sadly I did commit one of those fallacies. Unfortunately I also just ended a one month study of Christopher Hitchens, watching his debates, lectures, and reading his books and if any one knows him will know that he is never the polite to people. Anyway his style sort of rubbed off on me and I lost certain forms of diplomacy when debating. Although appropriate in some forums I debate in it is by no means in here given that the forums are meant for like minded people to gather and have pleasant conversations. And for that I apologize.
So now I guess it is time to revise, defend, and clear up some presumption on my post. First Black Armor I am presuming that your profession makes you carry around a Gun, even though it makes no difference a weapon is a weapon. You carry your weapon in a manner that when purpose is required you have access to that weapon in a short time frame. Which means that the weapon is more capable of getting in the wrong hands. I support your caution and awareness of that possibility and do agree with your claim of responsibility in that sense. But where we differ seems to have put me in bad light. I do not in anyway remove the responsibility of a person caring the weapon! We should properly make sure that our weapons are peace tied so that a sharp tug or pull does not release the blade. Once done it would be anomaly for a blade to come out, one of the smallest probability. I cannot disprove there is no teapot revolving around the sun therefore there lives a possibility of it existing. A key concept in scientific philosophy. But will I live me life as if there actually is a pot, no. So just because there actually exist a possibility does not mean we must let it dictate our lives. As long as the weapon is properly peace tied, which I do every time, there should be no way the weapon comes out unless something is cut. Not to notice someone cutting away at something around you would mean your to oblivious to world and shouldn't carry a weapon. I just accept that take the simple proper precaution before entering the faire then relax and have a good time that's what the faire is all about. I can't formulate a justified rationality as to be constantly aware and focused on someone stealing your weapon from a proper peace tie. Of course this matter we may never agree with but i can tell you one thing no one will be stealing my blade from me. If there is a incident this year, god forbid, I will not be an accompanying member of it.
Yay now it's time I get to admit my fallacy. When I attacked the presumed over precaution of watching where your weapon swings I of course didn't use empirical evidence instead anecdotal. I would be the first to point that out in any argument. The anecdotal evidence I speak of is of course my own personal experience. First time ever carrying a weapon in to faire was my rapier. I would, without thought, always tuck the blade behind my legs when turning or in a booth, I would take off my baldric when sitting down, I would even go as far as pull the blade to my chest when walking through a condensed crowd. Perhaps this seemly common sense acts were granted to me because of the form of non self important philosophy I practice but that's a different debate. But I guess someone at my "young age indicates inexperience as it pertains to the proper and responsible carrying of weapons at faire" that anyone older then me or more experienced then me would easily have the same consideration I guess not. And of course I know that's not true I knew someone would post something about a story or two of getting hit by a weapon, it is inevitable. I just never experienced it.
So I hope that clears a few things up and removes some of the tarnish from my name. And please do refrain from calling me naive. It is a very hard struggle when someone produces credentials then automatically assumes a person of a young age couldn't possibility know anything. Sometimes people becoming so ignorant they ignore my argument altogether even though sometimes it is a repeat of someone else. I do understand where naive people can be annoying I face a fare share of them in my other forums. But please never assume I am, if I know little of a subject I always refrain myself from making conjectures.
Eh, I don't hold grudges and love theological debate. My major was theater/music and the theory and practice of religion, specializing in non western. I'll be the Italian flower singer/seller. Seek me out. Although I cannot share a pint, cast, I will speak kindly to you. if you don't bash me in the shins with a sheathed sword...
Quote from: nliedel on June 21, 2008, 04:41:36 PM
Eh, I don't hold grudges and love theological debate. My major was theater/music and the theory and practice of religion, specializing in non western. I'll be the Italian flower singer/seller. Seek me out. Although I cannot share a pint, cast, I will speak kindly to you. if you don't bash me in the shins with a sheathed sword...
Thanks for the response it does bring a sort of relief that I'm not to rational for a group and grant it I will seek you out. I will be of the up most careful of avoiding to hit you in the shins. Any conversation of any form of theology will be most invigorating.
I never realized something like this could cause so much controversy!
I have only one real fear in relation to this new policy.
I don't worry about the 'regulars' or 'play-trons' as, it seems, they're a (mostly) intelligent and considerate bunch. I know a lot on this board have travelled to other faires with an established weapon policy and already have practice when it comes to wearing a weapon in a crowd.
My fear is of the 'day-trippers'. Specifically, those 'Ya-Hoos" who buy a 'cloak' at Spencer's and (now, at least) a truly MASSIVE F-in Battle axe/claymore/whathaveyou and go wandering, willy-nilly, about the faire grounds without a thought or care. Now, I don't want to get into a 'four legs are better than two legs' argument, I just hope that security is up to the task of checking and ensuring a peace tie on each and every weapon that crosses the threshold and that cast and 'play-tron' alike (myself included) are willing to keep an eye out to help faire security.
'k...thems are my two cents, we now return you to regularly scheduled program
Quote from: Lord Pumpernickel on June 21, 2008, 02:15:04 PM
Well the troll has awakened and I do apologize for not responding to the thread when I was quoted life has been busy and I don't check this forum all the time. I also do feel that my bold statements have put a bad taste in some people's mouth about me and I do not want that. *snip*
lots of stuff here
*snip*
So I hope that clears a few things up and removes some of the tarnish from my name.
Sir, I took no great umbridge to your posts, I assure you. It seems perhaps the 'troll' sign that Sir William hung upon you was hasty and ill-advised--though he and the other 'heroic gentlemen' of this board should be well advised that I require no rescue from trolls, whoever they may (or may not) be.
Grammercy for the explaination. I too like to debate, and as long as you maintain respect for deserving opponents, you have a friendly 'ear' in me.
If you find yourself in Hollygrove this season, please inquire after me-- I would be pleased to speak over a pint (though I hardly indulge-- a squiffy Librarian is not a pretty sight) and to discover if you are indeed adept at maneuvering your sword in tight quarters.
I will seek you out a pint with a Liberian would be unique indeed.
As for the troll thing I took Sir Williams side to be more comically then serious and played that same attitude in my "The troll has awaken line." Sir William has never shown hasty labeling therefore would never think his intentions of the labeling was strictly on the motion of anger or hatred but mere jester.
So you are a fan of philosophy then? That explains everything.
Quote from: maelstrom0370 on June 22, 2008, 11:26:44 AM
I never realized something like this could cause so much controversy!
I have only one real fear in relation to this new policy.
I don't worry about the 'regulars' or 'play-trons' as, it seems, they're a (mostly) intelligent and considerate bunch. I know a lot on this board have travelled to other faires with an established weapon policy and already have practice when it comes to wearing a weapon in a crowd.
My fear is of the 'day-trippers'. Specifically, those 'Ya-Hoos" who buy a 'cloak' at Spencer's and (now, at least) a truly MASSIVE F-in Battle axe/claymore/whathaveyou and go wandering, willy-nilly, about the faire grounds without a thought or care. Now, I don't want to get into a 'four legs are better than two legs' argument, I just hope that security is up to the task of checking and ensuring a peace tie on each and every weapon that crosses the threshold and that cast and 'play-tron' alike (myself included) are willing to keep an eye out to help faire security.
'k...thems are my two cents, we now return you to regularly scheduled program
Having met, spoken with and seen some of our security, I believe they will be more than up to the task. Some of those dudes are small in stature, but large in knowledge.
::Hmmm, fire, and look, I have some gasoline!::
I wonder what MRF's policy will be in regard to concealed pistol licenses? I seem to remember in the past they did not honor them. I -may- be wrong, but I seem to remember seeing that posted somewhere.
As for the sword thing. Whatever. It is what it is, which is a huge hot button issue for some for whatever reason. At Silver Leaf we employ police officers as our security, so I don't worry about it much. Draw a weapon, get arrested. Works pretty well.
L. Dale Walter
Assistant General Manager
SLRF Productions
Quote from: L Dale Walter on June 24, 2008, 02:01:07 PM
::Hmmm, fire, and look, I have some gasoline!::
I wonder what MRF's policy will be in regard to concealed pistol licenses? I seem to remember in the past they did not honor them. I -may- be wrong, but I seem to remember seeing that posted somewhere.
As for the sword thing. Whatever. It is what it is, which is a huge hot button issue for some for whatever reason. At Silver Leaf we employ police officers as our security, so I don't worry about it much. Draw a weapon, get arrested. Works pretty well.
L. Dale Walter
Assistant General Manager
SLRF Productions
I believe that wherever alcoholic beverages are being sold even if your not drinking, a concealed weapon is prohibited. If you are drinking alcohol you are not able to carry. The laws are very strict where concealed weapons are concerned.
Quote from: L Dale Walter on June 24, 2008, 02:01:07 PM
::Hmmm, fire, and look, I have some gasoline!::
Well, hello, fellow pyro.... you must be
very busy over there. I'm kind of surprised you hadn't commented sooner on this topic. There have been many quoteable comments thusfar.
Quote from: L Dale Walter on June 24, 2008, 02:01:07 PM
At Silver Leaf we employ police officers as our security, so I don't worry about it much. Draw a weapon, get arrested. Works pretty well.
MiRF has the occasional Uniformed Officer--State Troopers, or Holly cops, I can't recall which. Perhaps both, actually.
I wonder if the same policy is in unspoken effect here too.
I mean, if someone was able to draw steel despite the all the safeguards....
Do you recall anything about that when you were doing the show here, or was it simply not covered?
It's not so much a matter of needing Security to be on the ball. They always are. The point where I've noticed it usually seems to break down is at the front gate, where the greeters seem to miss a great deal. Hopefully with this new policy, they'll be training the front gate a bit better at noticing such things.
A lot of great information and discussion here. I was wondering what the "peace ties" would actually be. I think the new policy will help out all the vendors who sell swords, daggers, etc. And, that will be a good thing for them. I'm looking forward to seeing goers with their gear this year. Granted, just hilts will be viewable, but it will cool to see how all are wearing their weapons.
Indeed the peace ties are to assist the vendors. It is my understanding that a concealed weapon would not be allowed. I just had the dang law quoted to me on Sunday, by my friend who is a weapons dealer, and I had mead in me and it's gone. At any rate we have three uniformed police on duty at all times, they are county cops.
Most people with concealed carry permits have gone through extensive training, massive amounts of money to get the permit in the first place, and are VERY careful not to EVER abuse this right. This per the wife, of said concealed weapons friend. I can have more answers after he comes home from work, this afternoon.
As for peace tying. If any member of the cast sees a weapon not peace tied, we are to inform security, but the gate will be careful. I've been assured. Does this mean that things won't happen? Things do happen, but you can bet your biffy that MIRF did not decide to do this lightly, and will be vigilant. I sound like a cheerleader, but if I thought it would be a problem, I would never invite my dearest friends and children. I like them. Most of the time.
"I believe that wherever alcoholic beverages are being sold even if your not drinking, a concealed weapon is prohibited. If you are drinking alcohol you are not able to carry. The laws are very strict where concealed weapons are concerned."
According to the "Concealed Weapons Handbook" it says that a CCW holder may not carry in a, "Dining room, lounge or bar area of a premises licensed under the Liquor Control Code" (there's also a list of other places they are prohibited from carrying). I know that either the faire or the individual vendors would have to have liquor licenses to serve alcohol but I don't know how that would work with it being an outdoor festival. I guess it would be up to the Oakland County Prosecutor to decide if that is a violation; however, the owner of the faire has the right to ban CCW holders from carrying on his property. And you are right that CCW holders can't drink.
The next question is how would security ensure that CCW holders weren't bringing weapons in? The only way I can think of would be pat-downs at the gate. I don't think they'd have much luck with metal detectors but how much fun would it be to watch them try!?
Quote from: graphicknight on June 25, 2008, 07:53:25 AM
A lot of great information and discussion here. I was wondering what the "peace ties" would actually be.
I am betting they will use plastic zip ties. Personally, that's all I have seen used and they are pretty quick to secure and pretty sturdy.
zip ties, per management. Four colors. I cannot remember the significance of the colors, other than it has nothing to do with how much booze one will be able to consume. I was assured of that.
Quote from: Black Armor on June 25, 2008, 10:04:34 AM
The next question is how would security ensure that CCW holders weren't bringing weapons in? The only way I can think of would be pat-downs at the gate. I don't think they'd have much luck with metal detectors but how much fun would it be to watch them try!?
There are no plans for pat downs that I know of. Although it would depend on the looks of the patter, per this potential pattee.
QuoteWell, hello, fellow pyro.... you must be very busy over there. I'm kind of surprised you hadn't commented sooner on this topic.
Nah, just letting the usuals state their piece. It really doesn't concern me, so I figured let those who it does thrash it out. If I am carrying a sword someone is paying me to do so.
QuoteDo you recall anything about that when you were doing the show here, or was it simply not covered?
I think I -may- have been the last person actually attacked by a patron with a weapon. He got arrested. That was back in like 1987 however, and was one of the reasons for the no weapons policy.
During my second tenure there it was always no weapons, so it really never came up.
QuoteMost people with concealed carry permits have gone through extensive training, massive amounts of money to get the permit in the first place,
I am sorry to tell you this, but you are wrong. When I had my general concealed carry permit (in the 90's) that was true. The Oakland County Officer on the licensing board when looking at my credentials said "You are better trained than our SWAT Team..." and I had spent thousands of dollars, and hundreds of hours training (Including 4 weeks at Thunder Ranch in Texas). Now if you pay $100, take a one day course, and pass a background check, you get a carry permit. Crimes by permit holders are, however, not even enough to be statistically significant, so it really isn't a problem. I do, however, know lots of people with carry permits that are hardly qualified to wield a spoon...
Quotezip ties, per management. Four colors. I cannot remember the significance of the colors, other than it has nothing to do with how much booze one will be able to consume. I was assured of that.
Sounds like overthinking to me. Bright color zip tie. Easily spotted. Problem solved.
Of course 43 different colors and a complex codeing system will be a lot more fun to watch...
LDW
Quote from: L Dale Walter on June 25, 2008, 06:49:08 PM
Crimes by permit holders are, however, not even enough to be statistically significant, so it really isn't a problem.
I tried quoting statistics once in this forum, didn't go over to well.
Quote from: Lord Pumpernickel on June 25, 2008, 09:48:26 PM
Quote from: L Dale Walter on June 25, 2008, 06:49:08 PM
Crimes by permit holders are, however, not even enough to be statistically significant, so it really isn't a problem.
I tried quoting statistics once in this forum, didn't go over to well.
The statistics I've seen clearly show permit holders have a lower rate of crimes with guns than the general public.
Just noticed this one:
QuoteMy own blade is a fifteen pound broadsword that I would not carry with me. My dress is fifteen pounds. That alone is enough for this lass.
15 Lbs? Are you sure? Having literally hundreds of weapons I only have one that begins to hit that weight. It is the sword I made on a bridgeport mill when I was 16 (back when dinosaurs walked the earth and swords were not available commercially - in 1981) that we refer to as "The Girder" as it could, quite literally, hold up a building. It is 1/2 inch thick 2 inch wide cold rolled steel. It weighs 13 Lbs.
Even my huge 5.31 foot long Del Tin Two Handed Sword (2162 for you Del Tin Fans) weighs just over 8 Lbs.
Now Starfire's silly 48" Claymore (total length 68 inches) weighs 13 Lbs. But other than anchor a boat, I can see little use for it.
So I am wondering, what in the world are you using?
L. Dale Walter
::Insert some stuff here as you see fit::
15 pound broadsword? Yow! Must be a mistake but a 15 pound dress that's quite possible.
Quote from: Lord Pumpernickel on June 15, 2008, 03:33:46 AM
Although I dare not agree with your reasoning and and precautions of carrying a weapon into faire. I do believe that it is an over statement of the natural reality. To put forth the statistics/physics and apply mathematics to the possibility of someone else stealing your weapon while peace tied is minimum and nearly ignorable. To think someone will steal your blade while peaced tied is stupid and irrational.
I don't believe you were "quoting statistics" but rather stating your opinion of the possibility of someone taking your peace tied weapon. Unless you actually have some documented statistics that were obtained as a result of a study of incidents at renaissance faires where peoples' peace tied weapons were taken, in which case I would be more than happy to hear them.
Anyway, 90% of statistics can be made to say anything 50% of the time. At least that's what I heard.
Quote from: Black Armor on June 26, 2008, 10:25:40 AM
Quote from: Lord Pumpernickel on June 15, 2008, 03:33:46 AM
Although I dare not agree with your reasoning and and precautions of carrying a weapon into faire. I do believe that it is an over statement of the natural reality. To put forth the statistics/physics and apply mathematics to the possibility of someone else stealing your weapon while peace tied is minimum and nearly ignorable. To think someone will steal your blade while peaced tied is stupid and irrational.
I don't believe you were "quoting statistics" but rather stating your opinion of the possibility of someone taking your peace tied weapon. Unless you actually have some documented statistics that were obtained as a result of a study of incidents at renaissance faires where peoples' peace tied weapons were taken, in which case I would be more than happy to hear them.
Anyway, 90% of statistics can be made to say anything 50% of the time. At least that's what I heard.
Hahaha I like that quote. This is were my scientific based philosophy comes in. If test were actually done and experiments completed I would most likely refer to them as studies show, experiments show, or evidence shows depending on the creditability. When I just use the word statistics I actually refer to probability based of a priori argument. And of course I based currently used probability on on theorized rational events that could bare a weapon that is pieced tied and the physical requirements for that occur. For example starting from most probable to least (assuming weapons are properly pieced tied): Someone cuts your tie, tie locking mechanism fails, you accidentally cut your tie, the tie's molecular structure breaks down and evaporates away. Then applying Octum's razor it would it is easy to say the a priori statistics that I used.
A better example of why this can work, statistically the chance of the earth blowing up and very rare. Doing the work on a priori bases I doubt you will need actual test done to support that statistic.
Of course a priori arguments are weak and subject to change given any a posteriori argument shows otherwise.
Lord P, now I see why your arguments don't go over well
Quote from: max and kate on June 26, 2008, 07:43:26 PM
Lord P, now I see why your arguments don't go over well
Well please if you can elaborate perhaps I can see were I fail try and improve.
My broadsword is a piece of crap that was made for me and I love it. It's used for religious purposes, not theatrical, so it's not getting drug out soon, but yes, it weighs almost fifteen pounds. You got me there, I did round up from fourteen point five.
I think, Lord P, that your arguments do not go over well, because it appears you try to talk over your arguees. Just a guess. We all know you're smart, that's enough. Now, it may be 100% possible this is your every language and that's the way it is, so forgive my guess, because that is all it is.
Four colors on the zip ties folks. Those who come every week are special. :) We do love our addicts.
A former MIRF addict, who can now no longer drink the ale. Honestly, I only ever have a glass a day, so it's not like I'll miss it. I'm a cheap drunk.
Quote from: nliedel on June 27, 2008, 05:06:53 AM
I think, Lord P, that your arguments do not go over well, because it appears you try to talk over your arguees. Just a guess. We all know you're smart, that's enough. Now, it may be 100% possible this is your every language and that's the way it is, so forgive my guess, because that is all it is.
Or he's using the 'I know smart sounding words so my argument has more merit.' method. Or, he's just pretentious.
~shrug~
Personally I think that his argument of discussing proper manners of carrying a weapon in a crowd will destroy the joy of wearing the weapon is a bunch of bunk. While his
a posteriori argument works well for only him in this case, we will be dealing with people who have not carried a sword before and posses neither system of knowledge and thus no experience at all with proper etiquette and attention to it.
Just like dressing in garb brings a certain amount of responsibility, so does carrying a weapon. Since this is the first time in a long time that MIRF has allowed it - there is merit in the discussion of it.
Quotewe will be dealing with people who have not carried a sword before and posses neither system of knowledge and thus no experience at all with proper etiquette and attention to it.
BINGO! For SOME reason people seem to think if they buy a sword, they are now a "swordsman", and while fighting with it hopefully will not come into play, the rest of the stuff that comes with it (care, manipulation in crowds, all that jazz) is part of the understanding of the weapon. I don't think the guy at the flea market handing over $25 for a Bud K sword is going to think of this.
Or you get arguements like the one posed to me a few months back, that he knew a great deal about swords because he took a Kendo class for 12 weeks. ::sigh::
I don't think there will be any major problems, but I think there will be lots of annoyances. But the best part is I DON'T HAVE TO DEAL WITH ANY OF THEM!!! I think I will come, dressed as a Klingon, and watch the fireworks. Do I have to peace tie my Batleth? (BTW: If anyone complains that Klingons aren't period, I will tap my tricorder and growl "Stupid holodeck malfunctions...")
QuoteMy broadsword is a piece of crap that was made for me and I love it. It's used for religious purposes,
I know that weight lifting (and a 15 LB sword is pretty weighty) can be like a religion...<g> OR do you use this to behead cattle like in Apocalypse Now?
No wait, better not to go down that road. Do not want to know...
Gotta go, Silver Leaf setup begins today. We open July 5. Killer entertainment lineup, plus the
LAST Knights of Iron show The Adventures of Robin Hood.
L. Dale Walter
Heglughme qaq Jajvam!
(carrying out the Klingon theme)
Quote from: Margaret on June 27, 2008, 06:08:13 AM
Quote from: nliedel on June 27, 2008, 05:06:53 AM
I think, Lord P, that your arguments do not go over well, because it appears you try to talk over your arguees. Just a guess. We all know you're smart, that's enough. Now, it may be 100% possible this is your every language and that's the way it is, so forgive my guess, because that is all it is.
Or he's using the 'I know smart sounding words so my argument has more merit.' method. Or, he's just pretentious.
~shrug~
Personally I think that his argument of discussing proper manners of carrying a weapon in a crowd will destroy the joy of wearing the weapon is a bunch of bunk. While his a posteriori argument works well for only him in this case, we will be dealing with people who have not carried a sword before and posses neither system of knowledge and thus no experience at all with proper etiquette and attention to it.
Just like dressing in garb brings a certain amount of responsibility, so does carrying a weapon. Since this is the first time in a long time that MIRF has allowed it - there is merit in the discussion of it.
The Ladies see through you. I have worn swords many times at many different events so I am safe.
and THIS is why I'm sticking to pistols!! :P and maybe a boarding axe...and a belaying pin or two....
Quote from: L Dale Walter on June 27, 2008, 08:15:41 AM
Quote
But the best part is I DON'T HAVE TO DEAL WITH ANY OF THEM!!! I think I will come, dressed as a Klingon, and watch the fireworks. Do I have to peace tie my Batleth? (BTW: If anyone complains that Klingons aren't period, I will tap my tricorder and growl "Stupid holodeck malfunctions...")
QuoteMy broadsword is a piece of crap that was made for me and I love it. It's used for religious purposes,
I know that weight lifting (and a 15 LB sword is pretty weighty) can be like a religion...<g> OR do you use this to behead cattle like in Apocalypse Now?
No wait, better not to go down that road. Do not want to know...
Gotta go, Silver Leaf setup begins today. We open July 5. Killer entertainment lineup, plus the LAST Knights of Iron show The Adventures of Robin Hood.
L. Dale Walter
Heglughme qaq Jajvam!
(carrying out the Klingon theme)
I do love Klingons. I actually think they are a hoot and don't care if someone is not dressed Ren at a Ren faire. No sweat off my brow. Yer all welcome. As for the sword. Wiccan. No actual cuts have been made with it.
Quote from: L Dale Walter on June 27, 2008, 08:15:41 AM
I think I will come, dressed as a Klingon, and watch the fireworks. Do I have to peace tie my Batleth? (BTW: If anyone complains that Klingons aren't period, I will tap my tricorder and growl "Stupid holodeck malfunctions...")
Klingons are just fine. As long as you don't come dressed as part of some troll gang, then... Oh. *er* Nevermind. ;) ;D
One of my buddies said that he wanted to come in full Superman costume. See, Superman was from outer space - from a very advanced culture. Who's to say he could not have arrived on earth in Elizabethan times.
Makes kind of scary sense....
Quote from: Lord Pumpernickel on June 26, 2008, 06:31:22 PM
When I just use the word statistics I actually refer to probability based of a priori argument. And of course I based currently used probability on on theorized rational events that could bare a weapon that is pieced tied and the physical requirements for that occur. For example starting from most probable to least (assuming weapons are properly pieced tied): Someone cuts your tie, tie locking mechanism fails, you accidentally cut your tie, the tie's molecular structure breaks down and evaporates away.
I'm not a statitician, but it sounds like you're applying statistical theory to this -- One could easily leap to the conclusion that you so readily apply theory to this argument because you lack actual experience.
That's where L Dale Walter and many of us on this thread are coming from. We've been out there---many of us for multiple years--and have seen the crazy, totally irrational, completely random stuff people will do.
Where the public is concerned, it's a good idea to throw any scientific or philosophical theory that relies on logic right out the window--it will be defeated by the sheer stupidity of people in large numbers.
And, gee, Dale.... you're retiring
already? Aren't you a little young yet? I mean, really-- I think you've got at least a couple more good
months left in you. :P
(hee! what are ya now, sixty? ya geezer! ) ;D
slightly more seriously (but only slightly)...I think the Klingon is more your style. You're too tall to be a troll. But at least you can re-use the teeth!
Quote from: Lord Pumpernickel on June 26, 2008, 06:31:22 PM
Quote from: Lord Pumpernickel on June 15, 2008, 03:33:46 AM
Although I dare not agree with your reasoning and and precautions of carrying a weapon into faire. I do believe that it is an over statement of the natural reality. To put forth the statistics/physics and apply mathematics to the possibility of someone else stealing your weapon while peace tied is minimum and nearly ignorable. To think someone will steal your blade while peaced tied is stupid and irrational.
Hahaha I like that quote. This is were my scientific based philosophy comes in. If test were actually done and experiments completed I would most likely refer to them as studies show, experiments show, or evidence shows depending on the creditability. When I just use the word statistics I actually refer to probability based of a priori argument. And of course I based currently used probability on on theorized rational events that could bare a weapon that is pieced tied and the physical requirements for that occur. For example starting from most probable to least (assuming weapons are properly pieced tied): Someone cuts your tie, tie locking mechanism fails, you accidentally cut your tie, the tie's molecular structure breaks down and evaporates away. Then applying Octum's razor it would it is easy to say the a priori statistics that I used.
A better example of why this can work, statistically the chance of the earth blowing up and very rare. Doing the work on a priori bases I doubt you will need actual test done to support that statistic.
Of course a priori arguments are weak and subject to change given any a posteriori argument shows otherwise.
Lord P, if you want to look in your college textbooks and regurgitate terms and refer to studies as a way of supporting your arguments, I'm sure there is a thread for that somewhere but it isn't this one. If you want to have a philosophical debate, I would be happy to indulge you in person but not in this format. I would be much more appreciative if you were making your own arguments based on your own knowledge instead of trying to baffle people with obscure terms like Occam's Razor (which you misspelled by the way; It's not "Octum" it's Occam or Ockham's Razor. Ockham after Sir William of Ockham for whom it is named.) People here are open to others' honest thoughts and opinions but I for one do not have much patience for anyone that tries to make himself look like a genius by talking above others. When someone does that, it appears more like someone who is trying to over compensate or impress rather than true intelligence.
I have had the displeasure of working for a boss for several years now who has a doctorate in philosophy. He does the same thing and it is no fun to talk to him either. He also tries to impress people with big words and obscure references, which only puts people off.
Be yourself and stop trying so hard to show that you are intelligent. If you are a truly intelligent person, others will recognize that by hearing YOUR ideas and thoughts. If you want to "apply Ockham's Razor" (the core idea of which is that "the simplest explanation is usually the best"), apply it to your posts and simply explain your opinion without clouding it up with far fetched analogies or references to "a priori" versus "a posteriori" statistics. None of us needs a statistics or philosophy lesson.
YYYEEEE HAAAAWWWW I love this topic!! <grabs popcorn bowl> <sits crosslegged on the floor> (although it is a re-run) sigh
'Priori' this and 'Posteriori' that, statistics, theory....I'm lost
Wasn't this a 'Weapons Policy' thread?
ANYways....is it really that much of a 'hot button'? I mean, you will or you won't right?
If you decide to carry a weapon, use your bean. Take responsibility for it.
If you're not comfortable or don't think you can handle the responsibility, then go to faire as you always have, sans weapon!
I dunno...seems like a pretty straight-forward thing to me.
MAelstrom,,,, DO NOT BE THE VOICE OF REASON!!!!!!! You're riuning my summer soap-TV. "As the Weapons policy turns" is the BEST THING on right now!!!!
Quote from: pineridge on June 27, 2008, 08:43:10 PM
MAelstrom,,,, DO NOT BE THE VOICE OF REASON!!!!!!! You're riuning my summer soap-TV. "As the Weapons policy turns" is the BEST THING on right now!!!!
That's awesome!
Quote from: Black Armor on June 27, 2008, 09:20:02 PM
Quote from: pineridge on June 27, 2008, 08:43:10 PM
MAelstrom,,,, DO NOT BE THE VOICE OF REASON!!!!!!! You're riuning my summer soap-TV. "As the Weapons policy turns" is the BEST THING on right now!!!!
That's awesome!
I agree! That is SO full of WIN!
Once a argument is won, it's no fun anymore. That's why I love history. Theories, things we can only guess at, and now weapons policies. WOOHOO!!!
Btw, I'm more afraid of a drunken idiot with a hidden dirk, than I am some guy with a zip tied sharp sword. Actually, it's grabby hands. Some men get drunk, see chests and think it's an open invitation. They scare me more. Not that I am a temperance girl, mind you. I say pass the Woodchuck, or the Mead. Sorry Guinness lovers. I've tried, I've really tried to like it, more for you.
Can peace ties be broken? Yes, I have a first hand story from a long time cast member who had it happen to her (I do not have permission to share it, sorry). Does it happen much? Lots of faires allow them with no issue at all. I don't expect any issues with them this year. Yes, I am cast and have all the bounce of a puppy on drugs, but I really don't think this is going to be an issue.
I really mean to call Kevin today and ask him about concealed weapons. I suspect since they cannot carry them into bars, and venues which hold over a certain number of people (Which I seem to remember is larger in numbers than our best day ever) the answer may be no. And there is that little thing about the owner saying you can't. Still, it's an interesting question. For arguments sake alone. And I do so love a good argument.
I once saw Hare Krishna Klingons at a Science Fiction Convention. I loved it.
Quote from: maelstrom0370 on June 27, 2008, 08:18:46 PM
If you decide to carry a weapon, use your bean. Take responsibility for it.
If you're not comfortable or don't think you can handle the responsibility, then go to faire as you always have, sans weapon!
I dunno...seems like a pretty straight-forward thing to me.
Boy - we can even put that arguement in to a proper form!!
Would you prefer
Modus Ponens form:
If you carry a weapon, you choose to accept reponsibility for it.
You choose to accept responsibility for it.
You carry a weapon.
Or, the
Modus Tollens form:
If you carry a weapon, you choose to accept responsibility for it.
You choose not to accept responsibility for it.
You do not carry a weapon.
ROTFLMAO!!!!
Can I have some popcorn too? With lots of butter, if you don't mind.
This is a very interesting (if not somewhat convoluted) thread. Being a royal pass holder for the past few years and having been married at MiRF in 2005, I'm glad they finally lifted the ban on weapons. I have a Pirate outfit, and a sword will complete the look I want. Having said that, it is our responsibility to be self policing on this issue. I will follow any and all rules in regards to said new policy and will expect nothing less from my fellow rennies. If you see someone acting like an idiot with or toward a person with a weapon, report them to security. Don't try to be a nice guy (or an apathetic do-nothing weenie) and not tell on them, or they will ruin it for all. I have no issue with busting someone being a jerk, as they will ruin someone elses day. The most important part is to not try to take matters into your own hands. Report them to security and don't try to be a hero. I would have no issue assisting security if they ask or need it, but don't confront morons on your own.
Security are the nice folks in the blue berets. Any cast member can find a member of security too. Cast members should be easy to pick out. they're always the ones running to be at their next spot.
Quote from: Margaret on June 28, 2008, 08:40:13 AM
Quote from: maelstrom0370 on June 27, 2008, 08:18:46 PM
If you decide to carry a weapon, use your bean. Take responsibility for it.
If you're not comfortable or don't think you can handle the responsibility, then go to faire as you always have, sans weapon!
I dunno...seems like a pretty straight-forward thing to me.
Boy - we can even put that arguement in to a proper form!!
Would you prefer Modus Ponens form:
If you carry a weapon, you choose to accept reponsibility for it.
You choose to accept responsibility for it.
You carry a weapon.
Or, the Modus Tollens form:
If you carry a weapon, you choose to accept responsibility for it.
You choose not to accept responsibility for it.
You do not carry a weapon.
ROTFLMAO!!!!
Can I have some popcorn too? With lots of butter, if you don't mind.
I can haz make sense now?
When forum arguments, not just here, but on a lot of forums, move to the point of arguing for the sake of argument, someone will remark they want popcorn, sometimes with butter. Just like at the movies, it becomes a form of entertainment to watch this sort of thing move around like an out of control snake. Twisting and turning in various directions and getting so convoluted, the snake knots hopelessly. Of course one can never quite unknot said snake. How's that for an analogy? I've not had my coffee yet.
Last year I just drilled a hole through the scabbard and sword and riveted them together.Showed the gentleman at the gate the sword could not be drawn and was let right in ,my frog hides the rivet.The sword was a 35 dollar special off of ebay and I get compliments all the time on how good it looks. Also Lord Dorian makes some great fake swords great metal hilts all different designs attached to a wood scabbard you cannot tell them from a real sword. All my good swords are on the wall in my armory awaiting the fall of civilization as we know it. ;D
Quote from: maelstrom0370 on June 28, 2008, 06:59:17 PM
I can haz make sense now?
Modus Ponens and
Modus Tollens are fancy schmancy terms describing 'valid arguement forms' in philosophy.
Modus Ponens goes like this:
If A then B
B (occurs or is)
_____________
A (must occur or be)
Go here for the Wiki entry on
Modus Ponens: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modus_Ponens.
Modus Tollens is sort of related to the
Modus Ponens form but this form depends on the denial of the B premise:
If A then B
Not B
_____________
Not A
Wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modus_tollens
They are arguements we use in everyday life without sticking the fancy schmacy lables on them.
If I dood it, I get in troublz. I dood it!! I gets in troublez!! There is a
Modus Ponens form. :D
If he committed the crime, his fingerprint will match the one taken from the crimescene. The fingerprint does not match. He did not commit the crime.
Modus Tollens comin' right at ya.
Ah, philosophy and weapons all on an early Sunday morn. Is there anything better. ;D
Nliedel - LOL thanks...I actually GOT the popcorn reference and I think that was the ONLY part I understood! ;D
Margaret - Wow!...just...wow!
*snort* Don't be too impressed - I was just showing off how anyone can uses fancy schmachy words.
I was a teacher's assistant for a few years. The prof. I helped taught Philosophy 100 and some of it rubbed off. ;)
here's some philosifisin' for ya!
If a sword is peace-tied in the middle of the forest, and it's tie is broken,,, does it make a noise?
illegitimus non carborundum est' !!
QuoteKlingons are just fine. As long as you don't come dressed as part of some troll gang, then... Oh. *er* Nevermind. ;) ;D
Oh come on you loved TROLLAPALOOZA and you know it. It was just too stupid not to do once.
QuoteThat's where L Dale Walter and many of us on this thread are coming from. We've been out there---many of us for multiple years--and have seen the crazy, totally irrational, completely random stuff people will do.
Remember in 2001 when the girl took off her artificial leg and hit me with it? Yeah, that actually happened...
QuoteAnd, gee, Dale.... you're retiring already? Aren't you a little young yet? I mean, really-- I think you've got at least a couple more good months left in you. :P
I am old enough to know when enough is enough. Time to do other things.
Quoteslightly more seriously (but only slightly)...I think the Klingon is more your style. You're too tall to be a troll. But at least you can re-use the teeth!
Again, TROLLAPALOOZA was just too stupid of an idea not to make it happen, once. I think my favorite moment was accusing QE of "Racial Profiling" while we were in jail. Classic.
Must go to bed. Built a joust field today. STUPID AUGER! STUPID ROCKS!
LDW
Quote from: Katie Bookwench on June 27, 2008, 12:42:49 PM
Quote from: Lord Pumpernickel on June 26, 2008, 06:31:22 PM
When I just use the word statistics I actually refer to probability based of a priori argument. And of course I based currently used probability on on theorized rational events that could bare a weapon that is pieced tied and the physical requirements for that occur. For example starting from most probable to least (assuming weapons are properly pieced tied): Someone cuts your tie, tie locking mechanism fails, you accidentally cut your tie, the tie's molecular structure breaks down and evaporates away.
I'm not a statitician, but it sounds like you're applying statistical theory to this -- One could easily leap to the conclusion that you so readily apply theory to this argument because you lack actual experience.
You are completely right in the terms but I refuse to use the word theory because it is so distorted in the laymen terms I can not use the word and them assume the right meaning is applied.
Also anecdotal evidence is never enough there must be some better empirical evidence that supports there claim. Although I do believe them and do not deny their fundamental claim I can not practice absolutism under the currant argument.
Quote from: Black Armor on June 27, 2008, 01:28:45 PM
Quote from: Lord Pumpernickel on June 26, 2008, 06:31:22 PM
Quote from: Lord Pumpernickel on June 15, 2008, 03:33:46 AM
Although I dare not agree with your reasoning and and precautions of carrying a weapon into faire. I do believe that it is an over statement of the natural reality. To put forth the statistics/physics and apply mathematics to the possibility of someone else stealing your weapon while peace tied is minimum and nearly ignorable. To think someone will steal your blade while peaced tied is stupid and irrational.
Hahaha I like that quote. This is were my scientific based philosophy comes in. If test were actually done and experiments completed I would most likely refer to them as studies show, experiments show, or evidence shows depending on the creditability. When I just use the word statistics I actually refer to probability based of a priori argument. And of course I based currently used probability on on theorized rational events that could bare a weapon that is pieced tied and the physical requirements for that occur. For example starting from most probable to least (assuming weapons are properly pieced tied): Someone cuts your tie, tie locking mechanism fails, you accidentally cut your tie, the tie's molecular structure breaks down and evaporates away. Then applying Octum's razor it would it is easy to say the a priori statistics that I used.
A better example of why this can work, statistically the chance of the earth blowing up and very rare. Doing the work on a priori bases I doubt you will need actual test done to support that statistic.
Of course a priori arguments are weak and subject to change given any a posteriori argument shows otherwise.
Lord P, if you want to look in your college textbooks and regurgitate terms and refer to studies as a way of supporting your arguments, I'm sure there is a thread for that somewhere but it isn't this one.
I know it isn't and I try to refrain from using it but when I try to make a small joke then someone replays with an attack I have the right to defend myself which I did. Although it involved philosophy it was part of my defense.
If you want to have a philosophical debate, I would be happy to indulge you in person but not in this format. I would be much more appreciative if you were making your own arguments based on your own knowledge instead of trying to baffle people with obscure terms like Occam's Razor (which you misspelled by the way; It's not "Octum" it's Occam or Ockham's Razor. Ockham after Sir William of Ockham for whom it is named.) People here are open to others' honest thoughts and opinions but I for one do not have much patience for anyone that tries to make himself look like a genius by talking above others. When someone does that, it appears more like someone who is trying to over compensate or impress rather than true intelligence.
I understand, also I apologize for misspelling Ockham he is a great man and I should have never done that. Also you have have to understand that the terms I use I believe people should use and understand if not then it should entice people to do some research like it has to me. I was not tought about Ockham's razor by a teacher instead I heard it once then researched what it actually was. I practice a non self focused form of philosophy that involves destroying any form of self importance. My words only have the intention displaying my thoughts. If people assume I am smart, naive, stupid, or normal from them then so be it. I do not and probably will never claim to be intelligent all I know and will discusses on this matter is what I know.
I have had the displeasure of working for a boss for several years now who has a doctorate in philosophy. He does the same thing and it is no fun to talk to him either. He also tries to impress people with big words and obscure references, which only puts people off.
I's sorry that you feel that way. What he does should encourage you to learn and study. For all I know if someone produces metaphors, ideology, or arguments I know nothing of I will not be discouraged by them instead seek and learn what I can to understand
Be yourself and stop trying so hard to show that you are intelligent. If you are a truly intelligent person, others will recognize that by hearing YOUR ideas and thoughts. If you want to "apply Ockham's Razor" (the core idea of which is that "the simplest explanation is usually the best"), apply it to your posts and simply explain your opinion without clouding it up with far fetched analogies or references to "a priori" versus "a posteriori" statistics. None of us needs a statistics or philosophy lesson.
I am myself ask anyone who hangs around me and they will see no abnormality in my arguments. I displayed my ideas and thought on this very topic and got a lot of rebuttal against them and then when I tried to defend myself you are the only one who keeps attacking me. I then tried to further defend myself using what words and knowledge I know and now I get attacked for my vocabulary. I am sorry my vocab may be different but it is who I am. A lot of people need a statistics/philosophy lesson that is true but that a different debate which does not belong on this forum. I only used a priori and a posteriori because they are the best words to use to further explain my argument you keep attacking. I tried to refrain from using them but when no other words fit what am I to do? My entire post you quoted only exist so that I may defend my view it in no way has any intention to make people think I am smart, intelligent, or wise.
Quote from: Lord Pumpernickel on June 30, 2008, 03:18:29 AM
I only used a priori and a posteriori because they are the best words to use to further explain my argument you keep attacking. I tried to refrain from using them but when no other words fit what am I to do?
What are you to do? First off, please learn to use the quote brackets correctly - it will make your responses easier to read.
Second - if you wish to defend yourself using jargon or wish to use that jargon so that people will join in a debate with you, at least provide a definition of that term.
QuoteSecond - if you wish to defend yourself using jargon or wish to use that jargon so that people will join in a debate with you, at least provide a definition of that term.
OR they could just have a swordfight! How cool would that be? See if Maria can get it on the grid!
L. Dale (Now throwing dynamite in the fire) Walter
Quote from: L Dale Walter on June 30, 2008, 09:21:50 AM
OR they could just have a swordfight! How cool would that be? See if Maria can get it on the grid!
L. Dale (Now throwing dynamite in the fire) Walter
/takes a fire extinguisher to Dale and hoses him down with it...
Easy there big guy. :-*
Although, there is the bunny fencing area..... Dale, you may be on to something!!
*pops in to chant* Bunny Fencing! Bunny Fencing! *pops out to safety*
Lord P, I'm not attacking you I'm trying to help you. I'm sure you're a nice guy and you are certainly interesting but you need to tone it down a bit. You said that you don't know what other words to use and that it is just the way you talk but nobody talks that way in normal conversation unless they hang out with scholars and scientists all day. I'm sure you prefer to use those terms but I'm also sure that you could probably do just fine without them. If you are smart enough to learn those terms and apply them in conversation then you should be smart enough to express yourself using normal, everyday language. Again, Ockham's Razor: the simplest explanation is usually the best. Or if you'd prefer, the "K.I.S.S." principle which is derived from Ockham's Razor. Everybody knows the saying, "Keep It Simple Stupid".
If you tighten up your sentence structure and drop all the unnecessary philosophy jargon you'll be burning up the message boards in no time!
See Malestrom,,, you just stir up the embers a little & the fire comes back to life!!! ;D
Will Luke marry Laura? Will old whatisname come out of the coma?
I'm thinking of making a 6 foot cardboard sword that I can fit inside. that will be my garb,, a giant sword. This should put to bed the can I get in wearing a sword question. :D
Pineridge..oh please! That would be brilliant!
Quote from: pineridge on June 30, 2008, 12:06:44 PM
See Malestrom,,, you just stir up the embers a little & the fire comes back to life!!! ;D
Will Luke marry Laura? Will old whatisname come out of the coma?
I'm thinking of making a 6 foot cardboard sword that I can fit inside. that will be my garb,, a giant sword. This should put to bed the can I get in wearing a sword question. :D
I'd like to nominate Pineridge for the win!
Go to faire
AS a sword!!??
That would be, like, the
BEST! GARB!! EVAR!!!
Quote from: L Dale Walter on June 30, 2008, 09:21:50 AM
OR they could just have a swordfight! How cool would that be? See if Maria can get it on the grid!
hey, that might be fun!
I'll bet she'd agree to it as long as no one is wearing anything
PINK.
;D
Quote from: maelstrom0370 on June 30, 2008, 12:35:07 PM
I'd like to nominate Pineridge for the win!
Go to faire AS a sword!!??
That would be, like, the BEST! GARB!! EVAR!!!
But, would his garb have to be peace tied? ;)
Quote from: Margaret on June 30, 2008, 03:13:31 PM
Quote from: maelstrom0370 on June 30, 2008, 12:35:07 PM
I'd like to nominate Pineridge for the win!
Go to faire AS a sword!!??
That would be, like, the BEST! GARB!! EVAR!!!
But, would his garb have to be peace tied? ;)
Wouldn't this be one of those arguments again?
"If you wear a sword, it must be peace tied."
I am
wearing a sword.
I must be peace tied.
Oi Vey!
I think if he goes as a sword he should be in a sheath and peace tied. If not he could fall down and hurt someone.
Quote from: L Dale Walter on June 30, 2008, 09:21:50 AM
QuoteSecond - if you wish to defend yourself using jargon or wish to use that jargon so that people will join in a debate with you, at least provide a definition of that term.
OR they could just have a swordfight! How cool would that be? See if Maria can get it on the grid!
L. Dale (Now throwing dynamite in the fire) Walter
Like your idea. Even if I lose it will be cool and being guys once our aggression is out we are friends again.
Quote from: Margaret on June 30, 2008, 05:03:39 AM
Quote from: Lord Pumpernickel on June 30, 2008, 03:18:29 AM
I only used a priori and a posteriori because they are the best words to use to further explain my argument you keep attacking. I tried to refrain from using them but when no other words fit what am I to do?
What are you to do? First off, please learn to use the quote brackets correctly - it will make your responses easier to read.
Second - if you wish to defend yourself using jargon or wish to use that jargon so that people will join in a debate with you, at least provide a definition of that term.
Yeah your right on both terms this new forum is different from most that I use which is strictly HTML so this is some getting use to. And I should offer definition of terms but that destroys the fun of finding the definition and learning.
Quote from: Black Armor on June 30, 2008, 11:24:57 AM
Lord P, I'm not attacking you I'm trying to help you. I'm sure you're a nice guy and you are certainly interesting but you need to tone it down a bit. You said that you don't know what other words to use and that it is just the way you talk but nobody talks that way in normal conversation unless they hang out with scholars and scientists all day. I'm sure you prefer to use those terms but I'm also sure that you could probably do just fine without them. If you are smart enough to learn those terms and apply them in conversation then you should be smart enough to express yourself using normal, everyday language. Again, Ockham's Razor: the simplest explanation is usually the best. Or if you'd prefer, the "K.I.S.S." principle which is derived from Ockham's Razor. Everybody knows the saying, "Keep It Simple Stupid".
If you tighten up your sentence structure and drop all the unnecessary philosophy jargon you'll be burning up the message boards in no time!
Thanks for your help and I do understand the diplomatic reason for your post but I can't stop using the terms. With who I very often debate with and who I watch and study this words come naturally to me. I even have a hard time using the phrase centripetal force since in physics there is no such thing as "centripetal" force in the literal terminology. But speak with any one of my friends and when I go in depth into my arguments, which I have here, I use the same vocabulary I do now. And when someone doesn't understand what I say they ask and I explain. That way the playing field is level and we can have a debate or argument without having to say so many words that can be summed up in one. Although I guess here I can try to refrain from using such vocab and it will be easy to do since this topic right here is probably the most debated topic yet and there is very little I disagree with people on other topic in this forum. Sadly a minor disagreement has turned into a lesson in diplomacy which all of us people who only wish to be friends and have a great time shouldn't concern ourselves with. Hopefully my post or your follow up post will be the end of this. Even when the topic we were debating initially ended so many post ago. I really do doubt anything of this caliber will ever occur again.
Sure, find me at the faire and this will end with me buying you a pint.
I swear every time I read about someone coming dressed as a sword the only thing I think about is the song they played on Doctor Dememento where the guy got drunk fell asleep...and I'm sure all of you know the rest. There's where the peace tie goes, if you're dressed as a sword. I mean, that makes the most sense. We should have blue peace ties for those.
Quotehey, that might be fun!
I'll bet she'd agree to it as long as no one is wearing anything PINK.
Pink? Did I miss something?
LDW
pink; the sound a bottle makes when struck upon thy head.
Seriously, I'm more worried about the weapons we can't see at faire.
Quote from: Sir Gawain on July 01, 2008, 09:15:50 AM
Seriously, I'm more worried about the weapons we can't see at faire.
If you can't see them, what makes you think they haven't always been there? ;) ;D :P
Quote from: L Dale Walter on July 01, 2008, 08:02:14 AM
Pink? Did I miss something?
LDW
Maria and the dear Mistress Katie have an on going love/hate relationship with pink.
Katie loves it. Maria hates it. ;D
OK - to be fair, it's only certain shades of pink Maria dislikes....
I think this thread has lost it's way. I thought it was about the Weapons Policy of the faire. Shouldn't another topic be started like maybe being named Mayhem? In fact I'll begin one for all the crazy posts that don't fit anywhere specifically that people want to make.
This thread's so off track the train jumped the Grand Canyon.
Quote from: Black Armor on July 01, 2008, 02:32:54 AM
Sure, find me at the faire and this will end with me buying you a pint.
Cool its settled we share a pint at the bar. Who says alcohol can't solve any problems.
Not the Scottish, or the Irish, or the Swedes, or the Italians...
Just keep the rum away from me and I'll be fine.
Wow, go on vacation for a couple of weeks, and look what happens!! My eyes are hurting from reading through all the pages of the posts. Now I'm going to get in trouble for being on here all day reading and trying to get up to speed on what I missed instead of doing the laundry.
And a familier face comes into the light of the fire from the forest. A treat, to be sure!!
Wecome again, L. Dale Walter!!
QuoteAnd a familier face comes into the light of the fire from the forest. A treat, to be sure!!
Wecome again, L. Dale Walter!!
Oh, I have been around, I just figured I would let others hash out this oft beat subject.
However, August 3rd is my last day as performer at Ren Fests, then I am dropping off the grid. I did so in 1988, and I in think 2008 the time is right for a repeat.
I think I will be in New Zealand snowboarding...
LDW
Then it is my loss that I will not be there to see one of you last performances. We are not attending Michigan until August 17th. Pray, might you stay until then? After many a tilt, at least in the old forums, it would be nice to finally meet face to face, so I can look you squarely in the eye...
as we raise a mug of ale. First one's my treat.
MIRF does not start till the 16th of August.
QuoteWe are not attending Michigan until August 17th. Pray, might you stay until then? After many a tilt, at least in the old forums, it would be nice to finally meet face to face, so I can look you squarely in the eye...
as we raise a mug of ale. First one's my treat.
Just for you Robert, I will be there the 17th. ;-)
Be careful about looking me in the eye. There are many at the Michigan Reniassance Festival that will tell you I am the Devil himself. You wouldn't want to lose your soul now would you? <g>
OR we could just raise a tankard. OR you can raise a tankard, I'll take a plastic cup. I hate carrying crap around with me...<g>
Dale
O.K. So now that the faire has been open for a little while, how have things been with the new policy in place? Has it taken forever to get in with the weapons check and zip tie thing. Have there been any incidents? Are there any additional weapons vendors? We will be up over the labor day weekend and I wanted to know if was worth bringing our things, or if it was to much of a hassle to bother with. Not trying to stir things up, just would like to know. Thanks-
Everything is running fine. Quick through the weapons check and as far as I know no incidents. Bring em if you got em.
I was just there on Sunday the 24th. First time this year. Brought my bow, arrows, Viking dagger and seax knife. The weapons check line wasn't too bad. Probably worse right at opening, but well worth the wait. It was great seeing so many decked out with swords, and such. Bring them! You won't be disappointed. (Can't say I saw any additional weapon's vendors. Maybe next year. Really would like to see some archery, custom bows and arrows, myself.)
Graphicknight,
There was a wonderful vendor in "Area 51" who had lovely handmade bows - recurve, Long bows, and Native American. I heard he was even making an elven bow for someone. He should be there again, so keep an eye out. Absolutely beautiful stuff. He strung a lighter pull long bow for me, and I must admit it was SWEET!
Quote from: Madge Estes on August 26, 2008, 09:38:30 AM
Graphicknight,
There was a wonderful vendor in "Area 51" who had lovely handmade bows - recurve, Long bows, and Native American. I heard he was even making an elven bow for someone. He should be there again, so keep an eye out. Absolutely beautiful stuff. He strung a lighter pull long bow for me, and I must admit it was SWEET!
ARGH!!!! I missed him! How? I was even back in "Area 51" (I think. Back where the Highland games were, right?) Thanks for the info, I'll be looking the next time.
Uhhhh... Just realized who this was from and who I was responding to. Thank you, indeed, Your Majesty!
Thank you for the info! I'm pleased to hear that there have been no problems integrating weapons at MIRF. I'm also supprised to hear that other vendors have not taken advantage of this new opportunity. We look forward to our visit to Hollygrove (only three days till departure) I can hardly wait.!
Made it'll boost the weapon merchances sale when people see how nice other people look sporting them around.
I have one sword shaped bruise on my leg, but well worth it. Poor guy just turned real fast and whap! He was most apologetic.
I've been seriously considering a short Saber for my Pirate garb, but with everything else I already have around my waist, I'm not sure I need any more.
Quote from: Lord Virgil on August 27, 2008, 09:40:30 AM
I've been seriously considering a short Saber for my Pirate garb, but with everything else I already have around my waist, I'm not sure I need any more.
All men look good with a bit of sword on their hip. DW has even started carrying one after all of these years.
Of all people to come in late to this discussion. HUZZAH to the management of MIRF. I will now add you to my list of faires that I must attend at some point in time in the future. I have always loudly voiced my objection to the no weapons policy maybe to the point of ad nauseum. So maybe there is hope for us yet when management will listen to the voices of reason instead of knee-jerk reaction. I read further back in this thread where someone got a bruise when someone turned to quick and she got whapped on the leg. In my younger, more boisterous mind set I would have said something to the effect of "oh Well they are in our world let them watch out" Having grown older and hopefully a bit wiser, I have been carrying several different rapiers(sheathed of course) but I have tried to be watchfull of the wee ones and I happen to notice that children of short stature are at about face level with my scabbard so that if I turned quickly(which I try not to do) some kid could get a nasty bruise on the cheek. so I guess the time has come when I will have to swap out for a dress sword of some sort that hangs straight down. Oh Well as long as I can wear it, it will be a small price to pay.
I'm the whapped one and the whappee was so good looking I cared not :) It was not a complaint at all.
Quote from: nliedel on August 29, 2008, 07:01:49 AM
I'm the whapped one and the whappee was so good looking I cared not :) It was not a complaint at all.
M'Lady
I did not take it as a complaint, I merely alluded to it to make my point. However if the individual had been old, fat, and wrinkled, would you have complained??????? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;) ;) ;) ;)
It was nice to see the weapons policy changed this year,but on my way back home to Canada, I was questioned quite considerably about weapons and I answered no weapons but I had a guard who was savvy about ren faires and seemed to know that they do sell them there and I got very nervous although I did say "I bought no weapons " which was true, I did have my best sword in the back. I guess I am a good liar haha but I will never take one with me again. I did however carry my guitar most of the weekend and although I am not allowed to play, it was much easier to carry and was the subject of many conversations,so perhaps "minstral" is a better option for me.
Quote from: BLAKDUKE on August 29, 2008, 08:07:31 AM
Quote from: nliedel on August 29, 2008, 07:01:49 AM
I'm the whapped one and the whappee was so good looking I cared not :) It was not a complaint at all.
M'Lady
I did not take it as a complaint, I merely alluded to it to make my point. However if the individual had been old, fat, and wrinkled, would you have complained??????? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :D :D :D ;) ;) ;) ;)
In Serena's eyes there are no old, fat and wrinkled men. All are handsome, all are gallant and all are worthy of her hugs and love. Except my stalker. He is taking me a bit too seriously.
I did see a patron attempt to draw last weekend and security was on top of him, before he could blink.
Why do some people have to try to ruin it for everyone else. There is absolutely NO reason for anyone to ever attempt to draw their sword.....some people are IDIOTS!!!!!
If the sword was properly zip tied at the gate, why would he have tried to draw it, knowing full well he wouldn't be able to get it out of the scabbard. I've been asked a few times by the tween/teens at food booths and down the lanes to pull my sword to show the blade. I simply tell them it's not allowed, and I'm peace-tied. But, so far I've seen no problems except, the line to get in has increased since you must check all weapons at the gate. They need to have more than one person doing that job.
I was under the impressioin that the zip tie was going on regardless of how well I tied it but that was not the case. I simply tied it with leather and at the gate they tried to pull it out and were satisfied with it,not that it mattered but I remember at parf they tied it regardless of what I did beforehand.
i think those wooden weapons the little kids get are more dangerous then the real ones, even if some moron tried to draw his real one to show somone at least they are not swinging them around like bafoons with no regaurd as to who is around them. or hitting the unsuspecting guy in armour before you even see them comming or their parents stop them.
The doofus had removed the peace tie. I have no idea how, nor did I ask. Someone always has to make it hard on others.
And yes, those kiddie sticks are darn dangerous. We have a broken arm, or did, a couple years ago and fighting with them is now banned in my home. When you are mature enough to learn to use my broadsword (not to mention big enough), I will teach you. Until then, the pretty sticks are for show and that is that.
Quote from: Sir Gawain on September 08, 2008, 05:28:08 AM
I was under the impressioin that the zip tie was going on regardless of how well I tied it but that was not the case. I simply tied it with leather and at the gate they tried to pull it out and were satisfied with it,not that it mattered but I remember at parf they tied it regardless of what I did beforehand.
Sire, after bowing to you and offering to take you home, more than once, I am under the impression that thou are so gallant no one would dare not think you were not properly tied.
That was done as Serena. Nancy would never say the things Serena does. Okay, I try to show a couple the proper hand hold for 1569 in Meijer, but that was only once. ::)
Quote from: nliedel on September 08, 2008, 10:32:36 AM
Quote from: Sir Gawain on September 08, 2008, 05:28:08 AM
I was under the impressioin that the zip tie was going on regardless of how well I tied it but that was not the case. I simply tied it with leather and at the gate they tried to pull it out and were satisfied with it,not that it mattered but I remember at parf they tied it regardless of what I did beforehand.
Sire, after bowing to you and offering to take you home, more than once, I am under the impression that thou are so gallant no one would dare not think you were not properly tied.
That was done as Serena. Nancy would never say the things Serena does. Okay, I try to show a couple the proper hand hold for 1569 in Meijer, but that was only once. ::)
Really? haha wish I would have noticed that,I think I must walk around in a stupor as to not have a beautiful woman offering to take me home.
Quote from: Sir Gawain on September 09, 2008, 05:52:50 AM
That was done as Serena. Nancy would never say the things Serena does. Okay, I try to show a couple the proper hand hold for 1569 in Meijer, but that was only once. ::)
Really? haha wish I would have noticed that,I think I must walk around in a stupor as to not have a beautiful woman offering to take me home.
[/quote]
I am not as pretty as Serena, and Serena is not as pretty as my head shot :)
Quote from: nliedel on September 09, 2008, 07:09:51 AM
I am not as pretty as Serena, and Serena is not as pretty as my head shot :)
I beg to differ! I've met you and you're every bit as cute as your picture on here maybe more! You have a beautiful smile!
Thanks to a wonderful dentist and me finally getting my front tooth fixed. She's amazing. I love my new cap, just in time for the faire. Serena has a special something a bit of naughty that I used to have, but as a mother of four no longer let out of the bag. She allows me to be me and more. Does that make sense? I feel so pretty in my dresses and the accent makes me mysterious. There's something about slipping into her that makes me come alive again.
That and no one is tattling, beating anyone up, or asking me to cook. All pluses a couple days a week.
*swipes Nliedel's Guinness when she is zonked out, and leaves in its place Guinness Chocolate Cheesecake, and Guinness simmered corned beef brisket and cabbage*
Did someone say, "Cheesecake?"
Why yes I did, and not just "Cheesecake", but "Guinness Chocolate Cheesecake." Just ask Madge Estes. :)
Quote from: TinGoliath on September 10, 2008, 11:50:36 AM
Why yes I did, and not just "Cheesecake", but "Guinness Chocolate Cheesecake." Just ask Madge Estes. :)
Can't. Still practically tinkle my drawers when I see her. Which she thinks is ridiculous, but there you go.
I'll be there two weeks from today... (Good LORD! THAT SOON?!?!?!) And, you an hover behind me as we Both approach the Queen. That way, you may be offered a little more confidence. :)
Quote from: TinGoliath on September 12, 2008, 12:04:24 AM
And, you an hover behind me as we Both approach the Queen. That way, you may be offered a little more confidence. :)
And a goodly view of your manly assets as you bow. ;D
/whistles innocently, looking about as if to appear nonchalant
*grins coyly at Bookwench*
The thing is we're supposed to do some interaction with the Queen, but I have found every excuse not to. Introducing my son with autism was my one and only, me-thinks.
It counts.
Really.
The thing is she's so nice to me. It makes no sense at all. Although I want to see her get to three with Fairfax. I think a good old fashioned be-heading would make it a more interesting day. ;D Just Kidding.
Quote from: TinGoliath on September 12, 2008, 10:37:03 AM
*grins coyly at Bookwench*
*cough* Coy?!?
you're not fooling anybody, my good son. ;)
Quote from: nliedel on September 12, 2008, 11:30:01 AM
The thing is we're supposed to do some interaction with the Queen, but I have found every excuse not to. Introducing my son with autism was my one and only, me-thinks.
Oh, lass, you don't know what you're missin! She's got a wicked sense of humour, and she is good at keeping you on your toes!
Quote from: nliedel on September 12, 2008, 11:30:01 AM
*snip* Although I want to see her get to three with Fairfax. *snip*
:o
I had no idea Fairfax was her type!
Oh...wait... I must have read that all wrong....
Three and Fairfax's head goes south while his body goes north ;D
*smiles sweetly at Bookwench*
Who says my aim was to mislead?
Of course there is the "Queen's Count to three" override which can also be fun to watch, and it does not take so many words.
*offers nliedel an escorting hand*
Quote from: TinGoliath on September 15, 2008, 07:51:03 AM
*smiles sweetly at Bookwench*
Who says my aim was to mislead?
Of course there is the "Queen's Count to three" override which can also be fun to watch, and it does not take so many words.
*offers nliedel an escorting hand*
Takes it gladly. I wonder if the whole place looks like a topographical map now? I won't be up there till Friday and I know the people in the office are way too busy to call today.