Having a genealogist for a mother has its advantages. She was able to trace my roots on her side all the way back to John Welch (1520-1602), Laird of Collieston, an Estate in Nithsdale, parish of Dunscove, Dunfrieshire in Scotland.
The problem is, Welch is not a Scottish name. Its roots (as far as I can tell) are English, from Welsh or Walsh. There is no clan or family information listed for the Scottish Welch line, and I'm undecided as to what tartan to search for.
I've read the do's and dont's concerning knowledge of the history of the tartan you wear, and I certainly don't want to be 'that guy'.
Does anyone have any pointers or information on the Welch family?
A quick look at the map and it looks like Dunfrieshire is well south of the "Highland line" so strictly speaking, as "lowlanders" it's less likely they would have worn tartan or kilts in that area. But that doesn't mean a modern invented tartan hasn't been assigned to the family or their descendants. You could try to track whether in later years the family might have married into some clan that does have a defined tartan.
Of course the spelling of names could be fairly loose so any Welsh or Walsh from the same area might be the way to go as well. (Heck, there are like 6 documented spellings for Wm Shakespeare from his life time)
A lowland family for sure, possibly an English landlord.
http://www.surnamedb.com/surname.aspx?name=Welch
Afraid I can't find a tartan for the various spellings of the name in the tartan register. Your best bet would be a 'District Tartan' which for Dumfries is Galloway, or the easier to find and more historic Caledonia.
http://www.district-tartans.com/
You may go for the Black Watch tartan... either modern or ancient. both are pretty sharp but simple.
I think I've decided to go with the 'non-denominational' Nightstalker kilt from StillWater for now (and I even like the color). That will at least get to the festival, and give me time in between to research a little more. I like the idea of the district tartan and I have a friend (Thomson clan) who went with the Black Watch tartan after researching some of his family's history.
Thanks for all the great info!
::edit:: I'm also digging the Galloway Hunting (Muted) tartan over at usakilts.com!
Can't go wrong with USA Kilts!
I too wear the Night Stalker to fair. I have yet to pay the $$ for my actual tartan (MacEwan) and even if I do, I'm not 100% certain I would want to wear it to faire (the dirt, splintered wooden benches, etc.). Most people think the kilt is some form of hunters color.
That's a good point; I never considered the cost-to-risk ratio of damaging an expensive tartan. Definitely something to think about before ordering my next one.
On a side note, I did receive my Nightstalker tartan - I ordered it Friday morning and it was in my mailbox Monday afternoon! I'm no expert on kilts, but this was very well-made, with a nice lining and a basting stitch to hold the pleats in place during shipping.
If only they carried the Galloway... :)
Good choice on the Stillwater, it's about the best bang for your kilt buck there is. No worries messing up the USA Kilt though, That's all I wear to faire. I would not wear my wool tank there! The PV fabric from USA is quite durable, not as prone to catching on stuff like the looser weave Stillwater is, teflon treated for stain resistantance, and washable!
I've said it before and then deleted my own comments so as to not ire those who don it....but really I do have to say....Blackwatch tartan...no.
Unless you served....I have to say no.
There are several County and Celtic American tartans that you can ascribe to with all proper circumstance and worthiness.
Blackwatch is off limits unless you served.
But I've always heard Black Watch as usually the most frequently recommended tartan for people who don't have/know what clan tartan they should wear?!? ???
Do you have some info that it's not kosher?
Quote from: groomporter on August 25, 2009, 06:16:31 PM
But I've always heard Black Watch as usually the most frequently recommended tartan for people who don't have/know what clan tartan they should wear?!? ???
Do you have some info that it's not kosher?
You may have heard, but to any of the Armed Forces across the world, it's the same standard. Rough analogy, it would be like a civilian wearing a set of Class As with a full ribbon rack and medals, rank, and finishing it off with a green beret. You just don't do it.
Exception for the A Team... because that was a badass show.
Talk to any Scottish regiment of Her Majesty's Service and they will indeed "educate"
you.
My dear Groomsporter, Blackwatch is off limits. If an American dons it it shows not only an ignorance of gaelic pride but a disrespect of those celts who died in service for country.
Just saying.
Is the normal recommendation just an Amurrican convention then?
Quote from: groomporter on August 25, 2009, 06:33:30 PM
Is the normal recommendation just an Amurrican convention then?
Pretty much. In such a society of diverse cultures, there is such an ignorance and lack of respect to the customs and cultures of the world.
Hell, we barely respect our own, as it is.
I got an "earful" from a "military" Scotsman.
Served in Iraq he did.
Even though publicly the Blackwatch is considered "open".....as he explained it...that's because the taxes paid it thus. This is not the thinking upon the men and women who serve under that regiment.
Blackwatch is a tartan that is earned....not lived nor expected.
I respect deeply this particular Scotsmans revelations.
I encourage you all to embrace it.
Well, for purposes of Renfairs, I wouldn't worry about it since the period at fair predates the notion of clans being assigned specific tartans. I usually wear a generic tartan, or as a friend refers to it "mere checkered cloth" anyway.
Quote from: groomporter on August 25, 2009, 06:44:50 PM
Well, for purposes of Renfairs, I wouldn't worry about it since the period at fair predates the notion of clans being assigned specific tartans.
I agree that renfairs are about fun. This forum is about all things Celtic in that arena.
But it's not okay to purposely direct a person in a direction that will provoke dismay or folly. New Kilt affecianados whether they be Scottish or not should know the protocol.
We do try to
not piss the clans off...don't we?
I don't know, with all the misinformation about kilts and tartans that are still spread around, it's kind of fun to tweak some of the snobs on occasion ::)
I personally would be drawn to someone doning my tartan...I'd see them as a cousin...and then to find out they just picked it because????
I'd be heartily offended and would give that person a Scotswoman tongue lashing that they'd never forget....
And I have many...Reid, MacQuarrie, Wallace (two lines), Chisholm, Rutherford, too many more etc.
I recognize these people by their tartans.
I'm suggesting that the Blackwatch Tartan should be respected as a Scottish Military tartan for those who have served....and not something that any R/F member would casually don. If you served in the Military during wartime...and you are Amercian with proven Scottish descent...then you may don the Blackwatch proudly at a Ren Faire.
To pick it as a casual and "free" tartan..the answer in my mind is no.
If that strikes you as "snobby"....sobeit.
I think what it comes down to is, while I respect servicemen, if you Google "universal tartans" it seems like the horse has left the barn... and it may be a battle the gallant Forty-twa may have unfortunately already lost in the War of Etiquette.
Quote from: groomporter on August 25, 2009, 07:32:32 PM
I think what it comes down to is, while I respect servicemen, if you Google "universal tartans" it seems like the horse has left the barn... and it may be a battle the gallant Forty-twa may have unfortunately already lost in the War of Etiquette.
Undersood.
Iiiiiim, just saying
I wear a Kilt.
I am a "Scotsman".
I have a "Family" Tartan.
I wear a Black Watch Tartan kilt. (not my "family" tartan...)
I served for 12 years in the ARMY, with some combat experience.
Personally, I have no problem with anyone wearing a Black Watch Tartan. I do not find it offensive to see anyone who has not "served" wearing a Black Watch Tartan. I can understand why someone would be offended, I just don't think it matters.
...as for directing some inexperienced potential first time kilt-wearer to wear a Black Watch Kilt, is quite appropiate.
Victorian era etiquette proposed a "right" or "entitlement", as to whom should wear what type of Tartan, specifically tartan attributed to clans or families. This concept of the 'entitlement' to certain tartans has led to the term of universal tartan, or free tartan, which describes tartan which, in the opinion of some, can be worn by anyone.
Traditional examples of such are the Black Watch, Caledonian, Hunting Stewart, and Jacobite tartans.
In the same line of opinion, some tartan attributed to the British Royal Family are claimed by some to be 'off limits' to non-royals.
I find that mind sets of folk, that hold to the belief that none but those whom have served, are "entitled" to wear the Black Watch are simply honoring those who have served, and I thank them for that honor, yet I cannot find fault with others who wear it, either not knowing of the "tradition", or wishing to connect themselves with those whom have gone before us in Military service.
I, as a Vet, would be more upset watching another Vet berate some new Faire Patron for wearing the "wrong" Tartan, than I would with the Patron.
...now I've said my $0.02 worth,
I understand and appreciate your point of view.
And really in the end....this is all about respect.
Respect for the service and country.
Please understand my Scot kin in service as well. You may not care ...but he does.
I'm asking that you turn it around in some way that is beholden to you solidly as an American in Service but that has been lessened in some public way. e.g.....I can go and get all kinds of military insignia whether I'm entitled to wear it or not...I can get it.
I'm generously assuming that our folk here are of the most honourable in nature and would not assume to don something they are not.
The education is thus...Blackwatch may have been assumed to be a "free" tartan ...but it is not.
Lesson ended.
I have to admit since the Black Watch was officially assigned their tartan by the government in the 1740's they (and perhaps by extension, the other various regiments that have worn it) do probably have more right to complain about it becoming a universal tartan than the people who get uptight about their civilian tartans that were invented by a couple "Polish" Scots in the 1800's.
Some ungrateful "poser" with a chest full of false medals, wearing a "Military" kilt proudly, does not diminish my, or anyone else's service to their country, but diminishes themselves...
"Never try to teach a Pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the Pig." --Lazarus Long
Quote from: Julianne on August 25, 2009, 06:31:00 PM
Talk to any Scottish regiment of Her Majesty's Service and they will indeed "educate"
you.
My dear Groomsporter, Blackwatch is off limits. If an American dons it it shows not only an ignorance of gaelic pride but a disrespect of those celts who died in service for country.
Just saying.
Ma'am, i wear Blackwatch tartan. My cousin was a Sergent Major in the Black Watch and served for over 20 years... as have other members of my family. I am a Fraser of Lovat but i don't like wearing my formal kilt to faire, so Blackwatch serves me fine.
I too have done my time in the military and wear my kilts proudly
Fraser of Lovatt, Inasmuch all you say is true then I, and more importantly a born
Scot, would consider you entitled to don it sir
Well, One of the fun things about kilts and tartan is hearing all the myths, legends and wildly divergent expert advice that is out there!
There are a few tartans that are privately owned and who's sale is restricted, But Black Watch (always two words, experts) , or 'goverment sett' is not one of them. Like it or not, BW, like many of the tartans used by the military (like the Royal and Hunting Stewart you always see) has been considered a "universal" tartan for well over a hundred years. One theory is that a lot of used military kilts found their way into the rental market. Some think it's because it's just a simple sett to produce.
It is indeed one of the most commonly seen setts on everything from kilts and other clothing to throw rugs and soup cans.
Like many of the tartans used by the British military, it also was a family tartan, in this case a Campbell tartan. In 1725 six Independent Black Watch companies were formed. Three from Clan Campbell, one from Clan Fraser, one from Clan Munro and one from Clan Grant. These companies were known by the name Reicudan Dhu, or Black Watch. The regiment was then officially known as the 42nd Regiment of Foot. So the bulk of the original 'Watch' was raised from Campbell clans.
So Campbell's and their septs can certainly wear it, although most seem to favor the weathered version. It is also used as a hunting tartan by Clan Grant. Now there are some other clans that didn't like the Campbells or the Black Watch too much, because of clan war or run-ins with the goverment. But honestly, that stuff happened like 300 years ago!
So if you like the looks of the Campbell/ Black Watch/Govt. Sett/Grant Hunting Tartan, by all means wear it, If anyone asks you why, just tell them you really like soup!
Out of curiosity, I bounced it off a friend whose family has been merchants of Scottish gifts and kilt accoutrements and active in the local Scottish community. Their comment was:
I feel that it is similar to the wearing of a US Navy pea coat by a civilian. It may be a part of a uniform, but taken out of context, it becomes simply a garment.
I can understand the attitude of the Scottish veteran, but I think the above is part of how I see it, and part of the reason I don't feel guilty about wearing a vintage "Eisenhower" jacket as a civilian. (Watched too much Wild Wild West as a kid and always liked the look of short/cropped jackets ::) )
I wear a kilt all the time, I have to endure a lot of people with just enough info (generally wrong) about tartans to make them experts! I callthem the Tartan Police. What's funny to me, is they almost never have a kilt or any tartan on. A few years back at a Sci-Fi convention I was wearing my then new Caledonia kilt, and was in a hotel elevator with a couple friends. We were going like 20 floors from the top down to the ground floor, with a bunch of stops of course. A fellow in a business suit gets on and says in a sort of unfavorable tone:
"Nice kilt"
Me: "Thanks"
Suit guy: "Do you know what Tartan that is?"
Me: "Do I know...Uh, yeah, it's Caledonia"
SG: "Must be new, I've never seen it before."
I was playing along OK, but now I figure this guy is gonna go tartan cop on me...
Me: "It's a univesal tartan, I think it was originally registered in like 1820.."
SG: "Well I've never seen it before, Do have the right to wear it?"
Me: "Right? Yes, I bought it"
SG: "What I mean is did you get permission from......"
Me: "Where do you people get this crap?"
At this point two fortunate things happened, First, My friend Angie told the guy: " Man if you wanna debate your misinformation about kilts and tartan, don't do it with a guy in a kilt, at least not this one!"
Second, The door to our floor opened!
I love my friends!
Thank you, Zardoz. I keep forgetting that it's two words like the regiment. If there was anyone who would've known for a fact, free tartan or not, i figured it would've been you. ;D
Well, I'm far from an authority on all this, but I have access to a lot folks who are pretty well versed, including in this case active members of the 3rd Scots Battalion. It just gets to me sometimes when I hear myths and legends about tartans and Highland dress repeated and laid down as rules.
As a proud Scot (Robertson Clan), and a retired Army O6, I think this is just a little too far. First, I know Fraser and for anyone to question his service is wrong. Second the Black Watch is a listed Universal Tartan and as such can be worn by anyone, period end of disscussion. I proudly wear my clan tartan but have others in that are universal and will wear them proudly also.
Quote from: Julianne on August 25, 2009, 09:36:29 PM
Fraser of Lovatt, Inasmuch all you say is true then I, and more importantly a born
Scot, would consider you entitled to don it sir
*Born in Edinburgh, Scotland... August, 1967*
:P
Youngster ;)
Link about the Black Watch Tartan
http://www.albanach.org/blackwatch.htm
Quote from: Lairde Daniel on August 26, 2009, 09:42:56 AM
...First, I know Fraser and for anyone to question his service is wrong....
...did someone disrespect Fraser? I must have missed a posting.
Fraser disrespected? ???
I probably have not made my own opinions clear. My intention was to raise the subject of the protocol of doning the Blackwatch tartan due to the Scottish veteran who gave me his strong opinion on the matter. He felt very disrespected when it was worn casually and assumed free. He felt very differently on the "free" and "universal" part. :)
I am leaning toward his viewpoint but I'd never stand in the way of a man and his kilt ;)
Understand. All I can tell you is what the governing body of the Scottish Clans says, and that is the Black Watch tartan is universal. As a 30 year vet myself, I find no issue with someone wearing a universal tartan. Now if it is a regimental event, then of course you should not wear it, but otherwise do not see it as a tarnish, if anything it is a nod of respect. I know Fraser and know his military background and just got a little protective when I thought his service was being questioned. If that was not the intention, then I apoligize for any misunderstanding. Hope this clears the deck. ;D
I certainly didn't mean to stir up a hornets' nest with this thread. Think I'll just stick to jeans. :)
For the record, I'm an 11-year vet or the US Army (1989-2000), and have verifiable Scottish roots back to the 16th century. :)
Seriously, this is still good information, and it's nice to get opinions from vets, Scots, experts and hobbyists alike. For now, since my Dumfries-area ancestry is considered 'lowland', and not a kilt-wearing sect per se, I'm looking at the Galloway district tartan as my choice.
Role with it, brother Batninja! Can't wait to meet you at TRF!
*pssst, i'll be the big, long haired guy in Black Watch* :D
Quote from: batninja on August 27, 2009, 12:15:52 PM
Think I'll just stick to jeans. :)
That is a sad statement indeed! I hope that certain statements made here do not deter you from wearing a kilt that in
my point of view is giving honor to those who have served. You obviously have a respect for heritage just by your research alone and I see that you would be honorable in your choice of kilt. :)
See you kilted at TRF... bonny knees and all! ;)
Ach, lad! I'm expect'n ta see ye in a kilt! My grandfather always told me that if you marry a Scot, you are a Scot.
When you come to camp, AHE, ask for me and we'll have a pint (and some of my Cinnamon Apple Loki) and talk about The Order...
After all that is said and debated....celtic style.... ;)
I'm just happy to see the tartans.