Purely Hypothetical Question -

[Noble Dreg]

I fear we have started a "Chinese fire drill".

Apologies if the above statement in anyway offended anyone of any persuasion.   

[Storm]

Hypothetically speaking....

I'd have no use for a PC, overly family friendly faire. The whole fun of faire is the lack of PC and the escape from our overly PC world!...Bawdiness, adult humor, etc is what makes faire...well faire!

I would be happy to take the money I spend there, which is WAY more then the average family of 4 would spend and go elsewhere with it. They go for 1 day and I go for about 10! If the PTB there can't figure the math out on that, then they don't deserve my patronage. Once again, TPB seem to not care about their most loyal/repeat customers.

This is not the state fair. Its not full of rides and stuff. The ren is by nature an adult orientated deal. There is only a small section of it devoted to kids. Most of the vendors sell wares for adults. Kids don't like going from shop to shop looking at things that aren't toys!..

People always ask me to describe faire and I always say....imagine one huge craft show, with lots of unique food, plenty of beer and wine, and a lot of adult humor orientated entertainment. Can you bring the kids? Sure there are things for them to do there too, but its more of an adult thing since there aren't state fair style rides, etc. there for them. Yes, there are rides on animal backs and some games there too, but if you are looking for the roller coaster type stuff you're better off going down the road to Valley Fair or to the state fair instead. There is a difference between "faire" and "fair" after all....They are not the same thing.....

[Captain Jack Wolfe]

However this turns out, it boils down simple as this.  It all amounts to a couple (or several) new rules I get to break.  I get my best fun talking myself out of such situations.  Once again, those who know me... 

And ND, you owe us for the Chinese fire drill.  I take payments in cash or alcohol.

[Noble Dreg]

Belly up to the bar (Mac's) and I'll be sure to set you up!

[Lord Figaro]

Very good point Mad Jack, rules were meant to be broken. As frequently as possible too.

[Lady L]

Ok, here's what the rules say...
"Sexual harassment is defined in accordance with the Equal-Employment Opportunity Commission Guidelines, issued Nov. 10,1980 as:

Harassment can occur intentionally or unintentionally. Some examples of conduct that is prohibited by this policy are listed below. Please note that these are not the only examples.

1. Epithets, slurs, negative stereotyping, or threatening, intimidating or hostile acts that relate to race, color, religion, gender, national origin, age, disability, creed, marital status, veteran's status, status with regard to public assistance or sexual orientation and any other category protected by law.
2. Written or graphic material that denigrates or shows hostility or aversion toward an individual or group because of their race, color, religion, gender, national origin, age, disability, creed, marital status, veteran's status, status with regard to public assistance or sexual orientation and any other category protected by law that is placed on walls, bulletin boards or elsewhere on the Festival's premises or circulated throughout the workplace or entertainment areas.
3. Unwanted sexual comments, innuendoes, flirtations, propositions or suggestions
4. Use of offensive words of a sexual nature, describing body parts or the sexual act, telling "suggestive" jokes or stories and conversations about sexual exploits, sexual preferences and desires or suggestive or sexist remarks about a person's clothing or body.
5. Unwanted and unnecessary touching, brushing against, patting or pinching
6. Displaying in the work or entertainment area, pictures, objects, cartoons, pornographic magazines or representations of any action or subject which is sexual in nature, depicting nude, scantily clad or suggestively posed women or men and which can be perceived as offensive
7.Sabotaging another's character, reputation, work effects or property because of race, color, religion, gender, national origin, age, disability, creed, marital status, veteran's status, status with regard to public assistance or sexual orientation and any other category protected by law
8. Direct and/or indirect suggestions, requests or demands that an employee's job security, job assignment or conditions of employment or opportunities for advancement depend in any way on the granting of sexual favors or
9. Sexual relations accompanied by implied or overt threats or promises."

Not sure about number 3, number 4, number 5 and number 6.

I can understand how this applies in an office type setting, but considering the way some people dress/act at fest, not sure how it applies there. I am also sure that when there are 15,000 people a day, sometimes unintentional touching or brushing against is going to happen.. maybe at drum jam, or going in/out of a crowded shop. I can think of several shops that have pictures of scantily clad people. I don't find that offensive, besides, I have seen patrons that are wearing less than on a  piece of artwork. There are all kinds of suggestive, flirtations and innuendos out there. I don't know how they are going to monitor that? Note that this law has been in effect since 1980, but we just got the papers from fest a few years ago. How would this apply at a public beach, or a bar, or does it?  If this is directed at employees, staff, vendors, contractors at fest, etc, does that mean it does not apply to patrons? Who should we ask?

[Noble Dreg]

Again I believe we are confusing how one EMPLOYEE is to act towards another EMPLOYEE, not how one visitor is to act towards another.  The "Mating Game" has been going on since before the first fish crawled out of the swamp.  The above rules apply to co-workers in an environment where they are "forced" to spent significant time together.

The above laws do not apply to patrons.

If you are seriously concerned, check out this short but informative video...

http://www.truveo.com/Tom-Brady-SNL-Sexual-Harassment-PSA/id/977175842

[groomporter]

The basics of sexual harassment are that an employer has an obligation to provide a "comfortable working environment" and therefore has an obligation to deal with "inappropriate behavior."

For example, in our booth we joke about being partially a brothel since gaming halls sometimes offered other "entertainments" behind the scenes. Therefore we get a little bawdy at times and we warn prosepective helpers of that. (We've even publicly presented the Royal Guard with a "bill" for "services rendered.") But in the past my wife and I have found it necessary to drop certain (male and female) shop helpers specifically because their behavior went over the line and made other shop staff uncomfortable.

The examples listed from the EEO provide guidelines to deal with complaints, or potentially inappropriate behavior if they arise, they are not necessarily intended to stop or monitor normal human interaction. What it comes down to is that sexual harassment is defined by the person who is being offended. If you are not offended by being flirted with, then you are not being harassed. Even if offended, a single unwanted flirtation remark may be inappropriate, but is not necessarily "harassment" unless it continues.

I'm pretty sure the lawyers looked at Peterson and said "Jim, with the number of people you employ or contract with at fest, you really need to have a harassment policy to cover your butt."

As for patron behavior, it could effect a booth owner, or fest as an employer. If a patron, or other participant, is flirting with my staff member in an unwelcome way, I have the obligation to listen to my employee's/volunteer's complaint and deal with the matter. If I just say "put up with it in hopes of making a sale" my employee could have grounds for a harassment complaint against me. (But MAF would probably be not liable as a co-defendent since they have a published policy against harassment)

[Random Girl]

It does to some degree apply to patrons as well.  If safety services gets complaints about a specific patron doing something inappropriate be it with an employee or another patron we WILL go find that person and discuss the matter with them.  We have thrown people off site for failing to cooperate with us when told to stop doing it and they continue.  Most members of SS do not tolerate harrassment of any kind and will deal with it when they witness it. 

I would highly suggest that if ever in a situation where you are made to feel uncomfortable with something either an employee or another patron is doing please notify SS and give a discription of the individual.  We are more than happy to check that stuff out as it's for EVERYONE's benefit to get rid of the yucks that plague fest every day.

[Cobaltblu]

Sexual harassment can occur when customers act in ways which sexually harass employees and the employer does not take sufficient steps to prevent it.  When the employer can predictably determine that such behavior by customers may occur they must take steps to proactively prevent such behavior.  This is because the work environment involves extensive customer interaction.

This policy will probably ruin the work environment for many employees/vendors at a renaissance festival because for the love of god flirting, off-color jokes, inuendo and etc are all part of renaissance faires for heaven's sake!

I understand they are trying to cover themselves legally but this is plain stupid.  If this applies to employees vs employees and has nothing to do with patrons then it means there can be NO BAUDY ACTS and no cast actors can be involved in ANY BAUDY ACTS or any off-color comments or inuendos, etc because they could violate the sexual harassment rules and another actor could be offended or harassed.

I know people might say, oh well actors can agree to take part in dialog which is baudy but what if the actor doesn't want to take part in baudy dialog?  Theoretically the actor could say the employer created a hostile work environment by asking them to take part in behavior which violated the sexual harassment policy.

Someone could sue because they were assigned the character of a wench.

I don't agree with sexual harassment policies in any environment because they create so many legal loopholes and liabilities and problems and trouble than they are worth.

Regards,

CB

[Lord Moravec]

This is why I dislike the P.C./Nanny state this country has become. This is the same in my opinion as the smoking ban in bars, if you don't like it don't go to that type of event. People should know in advance that this type of behavior is possible. The racier shows could be placed in their own area with a warning that adult content could occour. I personally don't mind if a vendor flirts with me it boosts my ego and shows to me the vendor is paying attention to those around them. I will say flirting can get out of hand, but I believe most vandors could perform this in a semi-tastefull manor.

Sexual harassment can occur when customers act in ways which sexually harass employees and the employer does not take sufficient steps to prevent it.  When the employer can predictably determine that such behavior by customers may occur they must take steps to proactively prevent such behavior.  This is because the work environment involves extensive customer interaction.

This policy will probably ruin the work environment for many employees/vendors at a renaissance festival because for the love of god flirting, off-color jokes, inuendo and etc are all part of renaissance faires for heaven's sake!

I understand they are trying to cover themselves legally but this is plain stupid.  If this applies to employees vs employees and has nothing to do with patrons then it means there can be NO BAUDY ACTS and no cast actors can be involved in ANY BAUDY ACTS or any off-color comments or inuendos, etc because they could violate the sexual harassment rules and another actor could be offended or harassed.


I know people might say, oh well actors can agree to take part in dialog which is baudy but what if the actor doesn't want to take part in baudy dialog?  Theoretically the actor could say the employer created a hostile work environment by asking them to take part in behavior which violated the sexual harassment policy.

Someone could sue because they were assigned the character of a wench.

I don't agree with sexual harassment policies in any environment because they create so many legal loopholes and liabilities and problems and trouble than they are worth.

Regards,

CB

[groomporter]

As I've said before in this thread, the harassment policy was issued to crafters 2, or 3 years ago at least. I have never heard anything about it being included with performers' contracts, and I believe it is totally separate from the more recent talk about making the performance aspects of the show more family friendly.

[Leyla]

What part of "HYPOTHETICAL" are people missing?  Everyone's getting their undies in a twist over something that hasn't been implemented yet and for which we have yet to see any effects.  Fest doesn't even start for over 2 more months.  Many attenders who are repeat customers will go expecting the same faire they've been enjoying, and when they don't get it they'll start complaining.  Management will either listen or they won't. 
It's starting to sound like lewd and bawdy behavior is the only reason to attend faire.  That's pretty gross in my book.  I enjoy vilification tennis.  I like catching the last Phoenix and Tortuga show of the day once a season.  But they aren't the only acts or the only reason I go to faire. Some vendors have been incredibly vulgar and I certainly understand how those could have led to some complaints, especially when the vendors are so clueless as to not pick up on their target's repulsion.
I seriously doubt that all flirting will cease. That all acts will be squeaky clean. Or that fest will be unrecognizeable to those who know and love it.  Until I witness faire being ruined by PC I'm not going to waste any energy worrying about it.

[winterland]

I have never experienced any type of behavior that I thought would offend say my mother if she was with in my years of going. Any adult humored show you know not to bring kids unless they wouldn't understand.

For older kids that would get it, it would probably be anything they don't see on TV these days. All in all the reason I go and tell other people to go is for some of the adult humor.

As others have said PC has gotten out of control.     

[Lady L]

I don't know if this policy applies to performers or not. I would think either it applies to all of us or none of us. I can't believe that it *only* applies to shopkeepers. I don't have any employees in my shop, so that isn't what concerns me.

I had several original paintings and subsequent prints made from them, of topless/scantily clad fairies. These were approved by Lois and displayed at Hall of Masters for several years. When this policy came around, saying,
"6. Displaying in the work or entertainment area, pictures, objects, cartoons, pornographic magazines or representations of any action or subject which is sexual in nature, depicting nude, scantily clad or suggestively posed women or men and which can be perceived as offensive."
I have to think it applies to those pieces of artwork. What else can it mean?

All art museums and most art galleries have nude artwork. I can understand that nudes are not acceptable in an office setting, at a bank, at any children's type of store, etc. I just don't think it applies at art shows/renaissance faires.
Even the Sistine chapel has nudes and they have been acceptable for centuries. I don't *know* where the law, or the festival, is going to draw the line. Furthermore, when a patron is dressed in a chainmail bikini top and a thong, (for example) how is that acceptable and a scantily clad "not real person" in a  painting is not? My fairies are not real people, I didn't have a live model for them. Some faire attendees have complained about them in the past. Last year, I didn't display them.

As far as religion goes, I have had people complain about my one angel painting, because they were pagan. I had people who were Christian, complain about my shaman and greenmen. I had people complain that my angel was female, white and blonde. I had intended to do a multicultural series, not sure if I will now. So that's gender, religion, race and color I inadvertantly offended.
Everyone can find something they find offensive, so what's left? Maybe I should just paint animals.
I guess I need some clarification.