Paranoia at the Farie rant

[TheFerret]

Posed shots can be interesting but I love some of the photos I've seen that were taken as they were happening. They always seem more real to me.

[DeadBishop]

Whatever implications were made towards pedophelia I don't know.  I don't think DB was exaggerating but I can't see that coming from the SS person in question at least not to that tone.  Probably more of a "we've had problems with this in the past" etc but not so blatently expressing their opinion of you as a pedophile.

No, it wasn't blatantly stated, but as I said, it was stated as such in so many words.  There was no mention of past problems, just something to the effect of "a man fitting your description has been following children and taking their pictures."  But I simply stated that no, I have not been doing anything of that nature.  I was a little surprised when the approached me, as I noticed them hovering around me for about 5 minutes beforehand, but I thought it was just because we were near First Aid.  I'm more puzzled that they didn't say anything about my hard pass hanging in the open off my belt, now hearing that they didn't say anything to MBM because he's a "behind the scenes guys" as well.

I would also like to note that we are NOT trained professionals.  We are a group of people that probably knew someone on the team that didn't mind getting yelled at and abused for 13 hours a day for minimum wage.  Yes some of us are security professionals in our real life (I am not one of them) but a majority of them are just friends of existing crew that were willing to work for what was provided to them.  We go through some basic scenario training and do have an SOP to follow from but that just doesn't cover everything.  We do our best based on the situation and what we have available to us. 

I'm a little surprised and disconcerted to hear this as well.  That being said, SS does a great job for a group of untrained people, but at the same time that explains the inconsistency in how things are handled and why communication isn't spot on.  There's only so much you can do given the resources available (or more likely unavailable) to you.

[DeadBishop]

The only problem with stopping someone to ask permission to photograph them before snapping a photo or two is that it means you wind up with mostly posed photos, which are decidedly less interesting to look at.  Any professional or enthusiast photographer would agree with that point...

Stopping to ask permission will most likely kill the mood of the image trying to be captured.  Defeats the whole purpose of photo journalistic photography.  There are times when posing a subject is necessary, but at an event such as a renaissance festival, it's undesirable for what I'm trying to achieve with my photography.

[Carl Heinz]

In my case, unless I see you trying to take a picture, you're more likely to get a picture from the side or rear.  I generally keep rolling so that I don't interrupt the flow unless I'm trying to direct attention to something specific like a booth.  I've seen several YouTube shots of Lightning's rear.

[Charlotte Rowan]

The only problem with stopping someone to ask permission to photograph them before snapping a photo or two is that it means you wind up with mostly posed photos, which are decidedly less interesting to look at.  Any professional or enthusiast photographer would agree with that point...

Stopping to ask permission will most likely kill the mood of the image trying to be captured.  Defeats the whole purpose of photo journalistic photography.  There are times when posing a subject is necessary, but at an event such as a renaissance festival, it's undesirable for what I'm trying to achieve with my photography.

What's that they say, it's better to ask forgiveness than permission?? 

But seriously, in this case maybe it would be helpful to approach the parents after the photo is taken, explain that you caught a great candid moment of their child on camera and offer to show it to them and send them a copy? I don't know. Just an idea. Maybe it's better to just try not to be seen, but for those especially *careful* parents, maybe something like this would put them more at ease?

[majikboxman]

On a limb here... I think nothing may have been said to me as I may not have fit the description.?.?.?  Like mentioned... SS was in my close quarters a few times.  Since I'm not taking pics of kids, they could of noticed that and decided to leave this plump guy alone.

Stopping the action / flow, asking permission, then photoing... ... ... that blows.  Won't do it.  Many reasons for this.  Mainly... galleries like that suck. I expect a gallery like that from my 13 y/o daughter while she learns photography.  You'll probably see a few frames of posed in my galleries as that's just the nature of the beast.  I'm sure many out there with cameritas have people say 'ohhhh... take my pic' and then pose it up.

[Random Girl]

Oh... B/T/W Keith, I've met you a-couple of times in Mankato @ training camp.  Love your work.

As an aside, I do find the fact that(what I perceive as) security personnel are referred to here as "SS" and given the actions, I find it nervously amusing.

I personally find that incredibly offensive.  SS stands for SAFETY SERVICES not raging gastapo nazis no matter how crabby we get about something that is an incredibly unfair comparison.  I would hope that I never hear myself or my team referred to as such in jest or otherwise again.

[KeithR]

I personally find that incredibly offensive. 

It was never my intent to offend anyone and am truly sorry if it has and offer my apology.

[Carl Heinz]

SS stands for SAFETY SERVICES not raging gastapo nazis no matter how crabby we get about something that is an incredibly unfair comparison.  I would hope that I never hear myself or my team referred to as such in jest or otherwise again.

Back in the day, Security enjoyed the name of "Goon Squad".  They were large guys with white shirts and black pants who kept the "Goons" under control.  Things are much more civilized now, but I'm not sure if that's a good thing.  They were much more easy to identify when needed.

[Will Gamwell]

I have two points in which I wish to comment upon.

The First is Nessa's remark:

I would also like to note that we are NOT trained professionals. 

This is not a correction of your statement Nessa, but rather a clarification and further explanation.  While a good number of the staff is not trained specifically in security, there are many that are.  Many of the staff is also trained in other areas.  EMT's, First Responders, First Aid, & CPR.

The management team of Safety Services is in fact trained professionals.  One is a security professional, the other is P.O.S.T. certified in the state of Minnesota.  Others are security officers (full-time or part-time) or bouncers.

The point I wish to make on this subject is this.  I am a registered Protective Agent (armed security) in the state of Minnesota.  While I no longer actively work as a professional in the security field, I am the head of event security for a non-profit organization.  Even with all my training and background in the field, this did not make me the best Safety Services personnel.  Some of the best we have are people who have lived, breathed and worked at Renaissance Festivals.  It is a different place to work than any other.  A good number of the people we deal with are people who work at the faire.  Anything from acquaintances, friends, to people we consider family.  It is a difficult and hard line to try and draw, but one that anyone working SS has to draw.

Second:
In regards to the main issue of this thread, when I was on SS, I didn't know Majik personally, but knew of him.  I had no clue who DB was.  Any other photogs were completely off my radar as known people.  Pass or not, if you fit the general description, I would have watched you and approached you. 

Is it"paranoia"?  Perhaps for some people it is.  In the eyes of Safety Services and many other's who work the festival, it is something many are very over protective about.  As stated before, this was an issue in the past.  Only just two runs ago.  I was walking site in colors that day. 

I am not saying in any way, shape or form that the photogs need to change their attitude or that Safety Services needs to change their tactics.  I was not present to see any of it.  I will say that if anyone feels they were mistreated, a letter (of complaint) to the appropriate people is in order.

[Random Girl]

I personally find that incredibly offensive. 

It was never my intent to offend anyone and am truly sorry if it has and offer my apology.

I'm all for offensive humor, but it's not cool when it's made personal.  I appreciate the apology however.

SS stands for SAFETY SERVICES not raging gastapo nazis no matter how crabby we get about something that is an incredibly unfair comparison.  I would hope that I never hear myself or my team referred to as such in jest or otherwise again.

Back in the day, Security enjoyed the name of "Goon Squad".  They were large guys with white shirts and black pants who kept the "Goons" under control.  Things are much more civilized now, but I'm not sure if that's a good thing.  They were much more easy to identify when needed.

Safety Services has been taken over by women in recent years.  We have an unusually high concentration of us, it's pretty fantastic.  During the day it's rather obvious who is Safety Services.  At night, 99% of us wear all black, and have radios with boom mics.  Most of us wear a hat of some kind.  Mine is a black conductor hat that has the red SS cross on it in rhinestones.  I totally found it that way too for $5.  We all wear silver security officer badges on us somewhere and our passes are typically worn around our necks.  So effectively we look like the Goth Squad instead of the Goon Squad.  We don't like wearing bright colors, it deters our sneakiness.  We are like neeeeenja!

[Random Girl]

I have two points in which I wish to comment upon.

The First is Nessa's remark:

I would also like to note that we are NOT trained professionals. 

This is not a correction of your statement Nessa, but rather a clarification and further explanation.  While a good number of the staff is not trained specifically in security, there are many that are.  Many of the staff is also trained in other areas.  EMT's, First Responders, First Aid, & CPR.

The management team of Safety Services is in fact trained professionals.  One is a security professional, the other is P.O.S.T. certified in the state of Minnesota.  Others are security officers (full-time or part-time) or bouncers.

You are correct and I should have clarified that.  I had a lot of points to cover on that one and my brain moved faster than my typing.

[Capt Gabriela Fullpepper]

I'll chime in here.

Being what some at CoRF consider the faire photographer (I'm not as I buy my tickets and do not get paid to shoot photos) I carry with me a HUG stack of my business cards In most cases if at all possible I go tot he person I am shooting adult or child with an adult and hand them my business card after I took the shot. If they didn't want it posted they will tell me. Also in some cases (very rare) Some people will tell me they do not want they poto taken... so I don't.

Now as for discussion it may have been us at CoRF as I was tired of everyone going to my site and using the photos I took on facebook or myspace without asking permission first. In all cases I would say Sure, just give me credit. The exception to this is someone who wanted it for money making self promotion. Then I would expect something for the use of my photos.

As far as children go, there are MANY Teens under the age of 18 that work at faires. Most in the food service. There are many photographers that do shoot these people and you have no way of knowing as many teens these days do look older than they really are. So technically you could exploting them also.

Now CoRF is a different faire than Minnesota I do expect that if one faire makes changes others will follow. Just look at peace binding. That was never the case until issues started to arise.

Now with photography if one faire bans those of us who pay to shoot their faires, it will follow to other faires. I do in many ways expect this to happen to limit the images.

[Carl Heinz]

Now with photography if one faire bans those of us who pay to shoot their faires, it will follow to other faires. I do in many ways expect this to happen to limit the images.

I would hope that this wouldn't arise unless the event has to respond to insurance/liability issues.  There's something of a parallel with sharp pointies being peace tied.

I agree that posed shots might be less spontaneous, but I suspect that many shots are lost because the moment has passed before the camera is ready.  Lord knows, I have problems getting pictures of the youngest dachshund burrowing in his toys.  All too often, he's found the object of his search and moved on before I can get the shot off.

In addition to the teenagers at faire, there are a number of small children--usually those whose parents are participants or workers.  My concern is with the latter.  There is a well supervised participant child care area that does provide a good photo op.

As an aside to Nessa, I have to admit that I didn't always take the former security chief too seriously.  (He was interim between the "Goon Squad" and the present security staff.) Even though he's moved on to such things as working security at the Olympics, I can still remember him as a teenager in Court servant blue with a water pistol in his cod piece.

[majikboxman]

Oh... B/T/W Keith, I've met you a-couple of times in Mankato @ training camp.  Love your work.

As an aside, I do find the fact that(what I perceive as) security personnel are referred to here as "SS" and given the actions, I find it nervously amusing.

I personally find that incredibly offensive.  SS stands for SAFETY SERVICES not raging gastapo nazis no matter how crabby we get about something that is an incredibly unfair comparison.  I would hope that I never hear myself or my team referred to as such in jest or otherwise again.

Not sure if I owe it, but will offer a sorry for refering to Safety Services as SS.  Was just following the flow as it seamed 'and typed prior in the topic' as most caught on as what the SS stood for.  Sorry for any mishaps and can most assure you I was not trying to make any conncetions to the WW2 meaning.  In the future I'll try to remember to type it out fully.