Paranoia at the Farie rant

[majikboxman]

Oh... B/T/W Keith, I've met you a-couple of times in Mankato @ training camp.  Love your work.

Sorry for the double post. 

I repent my kudos... your not the same Keith that I was thinking of.  The vilkings have a staff photog named Keith.  A different Keith.  His work I have seen.  I have not seen yours so can not offer a kudos at this time. Sorry.  Will lok forward in seeing what you have photoed.

[Random Girl]

Oh... B/T/W Keith, I've met you a-couple of times in Mankato @ training camp.  Love your work.

As an aside, I do find the fact that(what I perceive as) security personnel are referred to here as "SS" and given the actions, I find it nervously amusing.

I personally find that incredibly offensive.  SS stands for SAFETY SERVICES not raging gastapo nazis no matter how crabby we get about something that is an incredibly unfair comparison.  I would hope that I never hear myself or my team referred to as such in jest or otherwise again.

Not sure if I owe it, but will offer a sorry for refering to Safety Services as SS.  Was just following the flow as it seamed 'and typed prior in the topic' as most caught on as what the SS stood for.  Sorry for any mishaps and can most assure you I was not trying to make any conncetions to the WW2 meaning.  In the future I'll try to remember to type it out fully. 

Calling us SS is fine, we call ourselves SS because it's quicker, emplying we are like THAT SS isn't ok.

[majikboxman]

Guees I'm safe then as I didn't imply that.  I repent my apology.   

[KeithR]

Oh... B/T/W Keith, I've met you a-couple of times in Mankato @ training camp.  Love your work.

Sorry for the double post. 

I repent my kudos... your not the same Keith that I was thinking of.  The vikings have a staff photog named Keith.  A different Keith.  His work I have seen.  I have not seen yours so can not offer a kudos at this time. Sorry.  Will lok forward in seeing what you have photoed.

No problem, Didn't know if you had seen what I had done for PFW. I did get lucky a few years back and a few end up on trading cards through NFL properties.
But..
I don't doubt that you may have met someone that covered the Vikes, and there may have been someone on the staff named Keith, but in the thirty plus years that I've had season photo creds,(and I've met everyone that took pics) I've only known the two guys that have been or are the Viking photogs. Fred Anderson was the guy I first met back in '75 who supplied all but the team photo. The stoic shot of Bud Grant in the parka and headset is his. When the team moved into the Dome, Fred was replaced(he actually moved to Bemidji) by Rick Kolodjziej(pronounced coll-laa-gee)who is still doing work with the team(including the team photo). I'll see him friday at the game along with his assistant, Steve Rohlf. Once in a great while when they show a past highlight footage on NFL Network, that includes a locker room shot of coach Green handing out a game ball or such, you'll see Rick trying to get out of the shot. But for him it's hard because he's like 6-2 and doesn't blend in too well. He was the only photog that had those creds(mine is limited to field sideline only), not even his assistant was allowed in. He also does the team photo. The Wilfs brought in some new people a couple of years ago and this may be Rick's final year. The team also contracts out a different photog to do the official cheerleader pics.
As for seeing what I shoot at the Faire, I hope to get something up so all can see. I don't consider my stuff in the same class as yours, but I hope some might enjoy them as much as I enjoy taking them.

[ladydiwinter]

okay...here's my rant on the rant or those that followed.

As far as Security asking people with "big cameras" to stop or ask people before you take the photo: If you are going to take pictures for the wrong reasons, would you do it with a "Big Camera?" Let's wear a sign that says..."hey look at me, I'm being bad!" If someone is going to do something nasty with photos, they are not going to dump the money into a "big camera" to do something they can do with a camera phone or a $20 wal mart point and shoot. Also, a small question... are they only asking men with "big cameras?"

Second... If you are a parent who has an issue with someone taking photos of their kid, this is what you do... you ask the person to delete the photos then and there, if they don't then alert security. You take care of the one photographer, instead of picking on all of them/us. All respectful photographers will trash the photos if asked. It is a very sad fact that there are people who take photos for the wrong reasons and all the shutterbugs have to pay the price.

now if the ticket fine print only applies to staff photographers... if you don't want your photo taken, I feel that you should be able to ask them not to use it in promotional materials. Which is the same as if any one else took your photo, you should feel free to ask them not to use it. I highly doubt that they state this because they plan on using random people on the web site. BUT this is the same thing that happens at sporting events or concerts. Do you honestly think they could get everyone in the Target center to agree to use photos taking during a sporting event or concert? It's a big loop hole so you can't turn around and say, "I was in seat aa24, that's me, I want my money."  So if you think about it...how big is the crowd at the Joust?

Also if it only applies to staff photogs, what rules apply to the rest? I'm not too concerned due to the fact that I only would take a photo of a child by accident or if they were in the shot of a Twig. If the shot seemed to be really good (which I doubt since Im not the best) I would ask the parent if I get the chance if they want a copy sent to them. But as I said in a past post and now, I take pictures of performers and objects. If I happen to take photos of someone else, they are in some sort of costume or interacting with a performer. Example, last year, you may have seen this guy, someone in body armor with a dog in a tutu.  But he stopped and posed for me and was on his way.

Okay, kinda all over the place with this post, but last thing... I am and will be considerate to anyone I take pictures of, IF security asks me to stop in a rude way, or in a way that is "in not so many words" I will be speaking with management. Nothing against anyone working at the festival, I have worked my fair share of carnivals and other jobs. There is a thing called tact, trained or not, you do not have to be rude when dealing with the public.

okay, one more thing...I'll be in garb at the festival when I go...if anyone wants to take my photo, go for it. I have no problem!

[Will Gamwell]

As far as Security asking people with "big cameras" to stop or ask people before you take the photo: If you are going to take pictures for the wrong reasons, would you do it with a "Big Camera?" Let's wear a sign that says..."hey look at me, I'm being bad!" If someone is going to do something nasty with photos, they are not going to dump the money into a "big camera" to do something they can do with a camera phone or a $20 wal mart point and shoot. Also, a small question... are they only asking men with "big cameras?"

In the previously mentioned issue from several years past, the person did have professional grade photography equipment.  "big lense" and all.  The person in question was in fact a pedophile and was in fact taking pictures of kids.

Okay, kinda all over the place with this post, but last thing... I am and will be considerate to anyone I take pictures of, IF security asks me to stop in a rude way, or in a way that is "in not so many words" I will be speaking with management. Nothing against anyone working at the festival, I have worked my fair share of carnivals and other jobs. There is a thing called tact, trained or not, you do not have to be rude when dealing with the public.

This is exactly what you should do, and I'm sure it would be encouraged by anyone out there.  If you feel you have been wrongfully treated, please make a complaint

[KeithR]

That doesn't mean that all photographers with pro gear(and BIG lenses)are pedophiles. One thing I see lacking in this is an education in what a "big" lens can and cannot do and what they're for. And while I would be happy to explain it(it could get long on boring), in reality, a smaller point and shoot camera has the ability to have a longer focal length(reach) than the "big" lenses and be a lot easier to conceal.
And I believe I mentioned that I was approached in a polite way. Then I believe they moved on to DB.
Which after reading DB's account of being told that someone matching his description..... While DB is much younger than I, has long dark hair and a long beard and(I think) was wearing a kilt, I on the other hand am about 20 years older, what's left of my hair and goatee is white(I was married and raised a daughter ) and don't have the desire to wear a kilt. Other than having pro gear and "big" lenses and being male, I don't see how I fit the description if he did....
If I do get the chance to get back out to Faire this(or any other) year, I will still be out there to shoot, but I will make every effort to not be intrusive. If I have the opportunity to capture any children, I will make an effort to inform the parents, that my endeavors are strictly for the art of photgraphy. Nothing more. The next time I do get the chance to come out, I hope to do some HDR photography which means I probably won't be shooting that many people.
And by shooting, I mean with a camera. Don't want people paraniod.

[Will Gamwell]

That doesn't mean that all photographers with pro gear(and BIG lenses)are pedophiles. One thing I see lacking in this is an education in what a "big" lens can and cannot do and what they're for. And while I would be happy to explain it(it could get long on boring), in reality, a smaller point and shoot camera has the ability to have a longer focal length(reach) than the "big" lenses and be a lot easier to conceal.

It is not a matter of lacking in education.  The equipment that someone has does not determine wether it is believed they are a pedophile.  It is only in direct connection to a description given to Safety Services.

And I believe I mentioned that I was approached in a polite way. Then I believe they moved on to DB.
Which after reading DB's account of being told that someone matching his description..... While DB is much younger than I, has long dark hair and a long beard and(I think) was wearing a kilt, I on the other hand am about 20 years older, what's left of my hair and goatee is white(I was married and raised a daughter ) and don't have the desire to wear a kilt. Other than having pro gear and "big" lenses and being male, I don't see how I fit the description if he did....

To expound upon my above comment.  The description is only as good as the person who is giving it.  Most people give a description that could fit more than just a handful of people out at fest.  It's like finding a needle in a haystack.

And by shooting, I mean with a camera. Don't want people paraniod.

[William_MacKean]

Even if every person on site was a pedophile, there are no laws against having any number of clothed pictures of children taken within view of a public space.

To prevent the taking of non-illegal photos could be viewed thru a First Ammendment filter.

That said, let's be real.  Don't go following a cute kid around without talking to the parents.  And parents need to be more proactive and less uptight about things.  Try asking the photog wassup.

On the subject of pedophiles:
I have seen a LOT more baby butt on network TV than adult butt.  Anyone else see something wrong with this?
And I like Vil's take on pedophile jokes:  Those who complain about them are blocking the 'pedophiles are bad' message.

[Will Gamwell]

Even if every person on site was a pedophile, there are no laws against having any number of clothed pictures of children taken within view of a public space.

Yes, but this is a common & known tactic of pedophiles to chose a "victim".  The last I will say about the previous issue, is that this is exactly what the person in question was found to be doing.  Even being at the festival was a direct violation of their probation.  Of coarse their is a paranoia with it.  It involves kids.  I'm sure we can all agree that we don't want our festival to be known as a pedophile hunting ground.

That being said, No, there is no excuse what-so-ever for any photographer to be alienated or mistreated for being at the festival and taking pictures of kids.  I do not agree in any way with the manner in which DB was approached.  It definately should have been handled differently. 

[Julianne]

Oh really this is just overgrown pishposh.
Given the people that I know , and who visit, any Ren Faire, I defy anyone to be able to get away with anything unseemly to a child.  For that matter, I find the women also are in the utmost care by all men....this is the nature of the renfolk.

Best pictures ever taken of my kids was from some random photographer artist.  I am very grateful for their artisitc insight.

Security needs to give it a rest with the fear factor.

[KeithR]

I'm sure we can all agree that we don't want our festival to be known as a pedophile hunting ground.

I whole heartily agree. As I stated from the beginning, this was the first time in 30 years that this happened and I was just taken back by it. That said, in all those years I have come to feel extremely safe at the Faire(as compared to the State Fair) and this is, I feel, directly due to the hard work and dedication that Safety Services provide. They must be very good at what they do, because I have never seen an incident of any kind in all that time. To me that speaks volumes as to the professionalism of the staff. This was one incident that could have been more than it was but turned out to not be.

[winterland]

With the world being so Polically Correct these days I am not surprised at the overblowness of this. Is that even a word?
I don't understand why anyone would pick the faire to get uptight about this. Why not Disney Land, Valley fair, The State Fair or any other place kids are?

People take lots of pictures at the fest because the MN Ren Fest is a beautiful place with beautiful people in beautiful clothing. Kids especially.  

As someone else mentioned I believe the Fest is a place to feel safe with your kids. Sure there are bad people everywhere but we can't live in a bubble. If there is someone doing anything wierd find them and kick their @$$.

Hopefully our thread is the most this is being talked about and it will just go away the rest of the season.

 

[Carl Heinz]

I'd agree that faire is a safe place for kids and also agree that it probably wouldn't be a safe place for a predator.  Lots of folks grew up at faire.  We've one example of fourth generation.  Our lady guildmaster is a Faire Brat.

[Will Gamwell]

Hopefully our thread is the most this is being talked about and it will just go away the rest of the season.

Not even a blip on the radar on the list serves.  The parking situation has pretty much taken over those.