Ren Fest and Body Image

[Charlotte Rowan]

I can certainly see the point some of you make about the emphasis on cleavage causing men to think it acceptable to make inappropriate comments or stare at it openly. I've noticed that too, and although some women don't seem bothered, some obviously are, and that's a problem too. (I do love Muffin's "what color are my eyes?" pin! ) Although we are open to bawdiness at faire, and Festies generally know how to do it right, sometimes it goes to far and becomes creepy and insulting.

I think the ren world does sometimes miss what is truely lovely about the ladies. The inside of a wrist peeking from a ruffled cuff or the bare nape of the neck from uplifted hair. So many subtleties are missed in the glaring neon of boobage!  

Very good point, Anna!

Your future daughters won't "feel any less beautiful" unless they are taught that big boobs make you beautiful.

As to this, I totally agree, but the problem is that girls ARE taught this - not by their parents (hopefully), but by society. No matter how many times your parents say you're beautiful just the way you are, I'm afraid the societal pressure to conform to the "model" standard is much stronger than can be balanced out by parental approval...

[Master James]

Well as I guy I do enjoy any women who dresses well at faire and away from faire to be honest.  Now do I like to see cleavage?  I'm a guy enough said.  HOWEVER, I have seen some women that do go beyond what is acceptable even for a faire and those I'd rather not see since a faire, however bawdy, is still a family show.  As long as its tastefully done, I have no problems if the lady is well endowed or not so well endowed.  Size does not matter.  I mostly wear noble garb and ladies noble garb does not push them out there because its not supposed to.  Does that make those ladies less attractive than the "bar wench"?  Not in my opinion.  And frankly size 2 or size 22, if they dress appropriately, they are all beautiful in their own ways.  Now being a guy I will also say this for you ladies, if you are going to "let it hang out there", don't be offended when we guys look.  If you don't want guys looking at your cleavage then don't have cleavage hanging out everywhere.  Muffin's pin is indeed great and I've seen several of them in that vein and I think they are perfect (the pins that is).  Besides the "what color are my eyes" I've seen ones that say "my eyes are farther up", "yes they are nice thank you"  and others. 

[Francisco Paula]

My personal opinion is since society says that the chest area of a woman is a naughty part and shouldn't be displayed when you have regular joe american going to faire and they are being shown they tend to start. Not saying its right. I know when i first started going to the faire the acreage being shown caught my eye, now i don't notice it as much.

I have to admit a lady at faire i asked out one of the first things i noticed was what she was showing and this was when i was first getting into faire. It wasn't till after faire ran its course that we were able to get together. I remember her coming to the door when i went to pick her up in a turtle neck and still thought she was as lovely as i remember at faire so i guess i did notice more then just one thing.

think a nice button would be "Tips excepted! Weather it be cash or your fingers for touching!"

As for the skinny as a twizzle stick look well since i'm a big man i tend to feel like i'm going to break them cause they are so skinny so i do tend to enjoy a woman with curves that i can hold.

[Noble Dreg]

...In "regular" society, the ideal attractive woman is thin and has big breasts, and these ideals are rigorously instilled into girls at an early age. We all know this is unhealthy and results in a lot of body issues, anorexia, low self esteem, etc...

I dare say society asks men to be 6'4" and muscular, no different.  Guys will take dangerous hormones and drugs just to get that look.

Big, little, thin, fat (yep, used the "F" word!), tall, short, don't matter a bit, it's the total package.  I've seen perfect female forms turn ugly when they open their mouths and speak.  I've seen "larger" women who sing and dance and think, a joy to spend a day at their side.

And here's where some may think the 'ol boy's snapped...I see an itsy-bitsy bikini clad gal at the beach and sure I'm enjoying the view (human nature)...yet I cant help but picture her in big 'ol hoops and a court gown!   Ooh, did I catch a glimpse of the nape of her neck? 

[Anna Iram]

LOL...yeah..laugh all you want Dreg. I knew that would be a hard sell for the western male mind...BUT those are exactly the two areas that were considered highly sensual during the days of the Japanese Geisha. A Geishas makeup was painted specifically to highlight the nape of her neck and a flash of a bared wrist or arm from benath those long sleeves was very provocotive. Everything else was covered. The very fact that the nape was really the only skin shown made it especially attractive.

Don't beleive your story of the bikini and hoops one little bit.

[tiberiusflynn]

Personally, I love women of all shapes and sizes. I'm an equal opporutunity woman lover. I've dated women with no cleavage and women with lots. My current gf weighs as much as me or more and I could give a care in the world. Is she fat or do I think of her as fat? Nope to both questions. A word I love to use is Buxom! I would LOVE to get her in a renaissance style dress...but she's not the type to show off the goods, which is fine.

Sure the faire style lends itself more to buxom curvy women, but to me there's something to be said about thin waifs.....

One thing I always loved when reading Sherlock Holmes is how Watson always noticed a woman's ankle....heh, as a kid I never understood that but now that I'm older and have taken "costume history" in college...I get it!

One thing I heard on the radio the other day was women were now preferring men that weren't as beefed up (apparently they try harder in the sack to please) and even wanted more facial hair.....

[Ambrosine]

Charlotte: I feel the same as you do! I do not have ample cleavage and when I put my corsets on I feel a little, well, out of place when my dear friends next to me have the ample amount to be pushed up.  never feel uncomfortable about my body outside faire, but when at faire this is the one time I wish I had larger pups just to make that darn corset look a little better!
I myself do have a daughter,well, a step daughter to be exact. She's only nine and already is self conscience about her body. It actually started at the end of kindergarten begining of 1st grade where she became unwilling to wear a two piece swim suit or anything that showed off her back ( halter tops are a big NO to her) As anyone who has seen my daughter she is GORGEOUS! very tall and slender, blond hair, blue eyes. She will end up more well endowed then myself as her mother has nice size cleavage, not too bawdy. I have to say at faire is the only place she feels comfortable enough to let those feelings go. She will wear a sprite costume that shows her belly and has only one shoulder, or she will wear a princess dress.  She never worries how she will look to others there.
Her father is a graphic designer and she sees those photos he's asked to "touch up"  and covering up blemishes, making her taller, thinning her out. We have always told her this is not the way a girl should expect to look and she sees that these "models" are being made to look this way. Even that being said she is being given the impression that this is the way the world wants her to look on an everyday basis and the only place she can get away from it is at faire.

[Synikul]

One thing that's great about the Fest culture is that at Fest, women are NOT made to feel like they need to be stick thin to be beautiful - in fact, curviness is praised perhaps even more than thinness. This is fine and great. But if curviness is praised more than thinness, the big-breast requirement, in my mind, is even more staunchly enforced at Fest than it is in the real world. I'm not saying I have a problem with woman showing cleavage or embracing their sexuality. But there is so much emphasis placed on cleavage and being large-chested that, as a person who is somewhat sparsely endowed in that area, it gets somewhat annoying. And although I mainly came to terms with my body years ago, I can't help feeling a little put down sometimes. But my personal feelings really aren't the issue.

What this makes me think is that as a community, we are not as accepting as we claim to be. I am completely happy that curvier women who are (quite wrongly) made to feel unattractive in "regular" society are made to feel beautiful at Fest. I agree that they are beautiful! This is a message we should be sending to our daughters. But if (hopefully, when) I have a daughter, chances are she, like me, will not big-breasted. I love Fest, but I don't want my daughter in a place where she feels any less beautiful than the DDs that are so highly praised on the festival grounds.

Individuals are what they are, and they're going to have whatever preference they have. I'm going bald, a lot of women don't like that, but life is a bit...I mean, life is tough. I guess I'm trying to reject the premise of your complaint without being too rude about it. You, and your future daughter, are just going to have to deal with the prevailing conditions wherever you choose to go. Asking leopards to change their spots because it makes the tigers feel uncomfortable won't get you anywhere.

Hey I just had a great idea! Maybe we should have a federal law that sets a quota for everyone to give a disingenuous compliment so many times a day to people they otherwise wouldn't. Heck, that's how we deal with other things.

[Charlotte Rowan]

Charlotte: I feel the same as you do! I do not have ample cleavage and when I put my corsets on I feel a little, well, out of place when my dear friends next to me have the ample amount to be pushed up.  never feel uncomfortable about my body outside faire, but when at faire this is the one time I wish I had larger pups just to make that darn corset look a little better!
I myself do have a daughter,well, a step daughter to be exact. She's only nine and already is self conscience about her body. It actually started at the end of kindergarten begining of 1st grade where she became unwilling to wear a two piece swim suit or anything that showed off her back ( halter tops are a big NO to her) As anyone who has seen my daughter she is GORGEOUS! very tall and slender, blond hair, blue eyes. She will end up more well endowed then myself as her mother has nice size cleavage, not too bawdy. I have to say at faire is the only place she feels comfortable enough to let those feelings go. She will wear a sprite costume that shows her belly and has only one shoulder, or she will wear a princess dress.  She never worries how she will look to others there.
Her father is a graphic designer and she sees those photos he's asked to "touch up"  and covering up blemishes, making her taller, thinning her out. We have always told her this is not the way a girl should expect to look and she sees that these "models" are being made to look this way. Even that being said she is being given the impression that this is the way the world wants her to look on an everyday basis and the only place she can get away from it is at faire.

Thanks for sharing this. I'm glad to hear your daughter is able to feel comfortable at faire, and it is sad that peple feel photos of her need to be "fixed!"

I dare say society asks men to be 6'4" and muscular, no different.  Guys will take dangerous hormones and drugs just to get that look.

Oh, I know society places demands on men as well - I didn't mean to imply otherwise. However (and maybe I'm wrong about this), I don't think the society pressure is quite as strong, and I don't think guys have as many body issues as women do.

Individuals are what they are, and they're going to have whatever preference they have. I'm going bald, a lot of women don't like that, but life is a bit...I mean, life is tough. I guess I'm trying to reject the premise of your complaint without being too rude about it. You, and your future daughter, are just going to have to deal with the prevailing conditions wherever you choose to go. Asking leopards to change their spots because it makes the tigers feel uncomfortable won't get you anywhere.

I know I have to deal with it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it, or refrain from voicing my discontent over it.

[Synikul]

I know I have to deal with it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it, or refrain from voicing my discontent over it.

You do not have to refrain from voicing your discontent, but that's not the only thing you did. You suggested hypocrisy on the part of everyone else with this line from your original post.

What this makes me think is that as a community, we are not as accepting as we claim to be.

Before and after, you loaded it up with qualifiers, but that doesn't change the point you really wanted to make, which is an insult. I don't even know what you're talking about with the big chest prejudice. I'm sure it's there, but from my personal experience you're grossly overstating it. Here's a picture of two of the girls in our fair/convention work/play group, we sell fairy wings. This pic is from a sci-fi convention but they wear the same thing at fair.



Judging by the attention they get at fair, and the attention that the waif thin flat chested girls I see in our shop getting from patrons and playtrons alike, it makes me think that this really is ALL about your personal feelings, in spite of what you say. The problem only exists in your mind, and you should refrain from projecting some flaw on the rest of us to make yourself feel better.

[DeadBishop]

Synikul, please stay on topic and refrain from personal attacks.   

[Becky10]

  The ladies you work with are very pretty (not what I would call flat chested) and I am sure they attract much attention but I don't believe what Charlotte is saying is being "grossly" overstated. I cant begin to tell you how many times I have heard faire referred to as "breast fest" and when searching through faire photos a good majority of them are of well endowned women. Body wise I am in the middle ground on this, neither very large or very small but I have seen my sister and friends have the same concerns when dressing for faire.

 Is this the case with every single photo, statement, person?  No, nothing ever is but when you are on the otherside it tends to stand out more. She is concerned for her (future) daughter's self-esteem, what is wrong with that? Thank God she does care and is looking out for her.


 Now, Charlotte, as hard as it may be at times I think this is just going to be one of those situations where you must lead by example and be proud of yourself and your body to show your (future) daughter that it doesn't matter what she looks like in or out of faire. As you said before society does make  large impact and being told you're beautiful from a parent does little to squat which is why i want to stress leading through example. Being told you are beautiful from someone who doesnt feel beautiful themselves does not make as large as an impact as someone who is proud to be themselves. We have some of the greatest men and women here and they have said so many things that should inspire and strengthen any doubt.

[ladyecho]

I guess I'm on both sides of this topic. I have loss some weight recently so I've been to faire in the more 'noticable' outfits, and this pass faire I wore my smallest bodice and it was still too big so I diddn't get the double takes as before. People look and comment. No one has tried to touch but as I work as a waitress in my day to day life my favorite expression of choice is "I accept tips, not fingertips!"

I take my two nieces to faire and as they are 3 and 4 years old body image is not on their minds, trying not to get kiddnapped by pirates was their main concern!  I've also taken my nephews to faire and as they were 12 and 14 the last time they went, attire and bawdy jokes were all they remembered!

I hope that when my nieces get old enough to voice their concerns to me about dress and image, I can teach them to dress and look at themselves positively. No one elses opinon should matter but their own. I don't know if any of this helped or confused you but its my two cents. ;p

[Charlotte Rowan]

I know I have to deal with it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it, or refrain from voicing my discontent over it.

You do not have to refrain from voicing your discontent, but that's not the only thing you did. You suggested hypocrisy on the part of everyone else with this line from your original post.

What this makes me think is that as a community, we are not as accepting as we claim to be.

Before and after, you loaded it up with qualifiers, but that doesn't change the point you really wanted to make, which is an insult. I don't even know what you're talking about with the big chest prejudice. I'm sure it's there, but from my personal experience you're grossly overstating it.

Okay, I can see how you could find that line insulting. It really wasn't my intention to accuse the community of hipocrisy or "project a flaw" onto anyone. I don't believe members of the community are hypocrites.  So - please accept my sincere apologies for inadvertently insulting you.

However, I still beg to differ on some of your points. Firstly, I'm pretty sure I know what the point I really wanted to make was, and you have misinterpreted that. Maybe I didn't do the best job making it, and you are certainly free to tell me if I inadvertently insulted you and what you perceived from my words, but you can't tell me what my intentions were. (This, by the way, is exactly what I meant to do with this post - not tell people that they intend to communicate by the emphasis on big boobage, but how others may perceive this emphasis.)  All I wanted was an open discussion about the issue. That's one of the many things I love about these forums - we can generally discuss things civilly even if people have different opinions.

Secondly, as you can see from some of the other replies here, the phenomenon is not all in my mind.

Now, Charlotte, as hard as it may be at times I think this is just going to be one of those situations where you must lead by example and be proud of yourself and your body to show your (future) daughter that it doesn't matter what she looks like in or out of faire. As you said before society does make  large impact and being told you're beautiful from a parent does little to squat which is why i want to stress leading through example. Being told you are beautiful from someone who doesnt feel beautiful themselves does not make as large as an impact as someone who is proud to be themselves. We have some of the greatest men and women here and they have said so many things that should inspire and strengthen any doubt.

Becky, you make a great point that leading by example is different (and more effective) than words. This is good advice and I surely will endeavor to follow it.

[analise]

Although we are open to bawdiness at faire, and Festies generally know how to do it right, sometimes it goes to far and becomes creepy and insulting.

Yeah, I remember walking through MDRF once and a couple of drunk (mundane) guys were sitting somewhere eating turkey legs as I went by and commented on the shaking happening at the top of my bodice. Which did bother me (because I go to lengths to make SURE my girls aren't popping out too much) but I just sort of have to let it go.

It's funny because I do love how a bodice makes me look but I'm still not a fan of sticking the girls out there for everyone to see.