The Borgias on Showtime

[Genievea Brookstone]

I have hit a road block in my garbing and though that this show would help with the inspiration but personally I am very disappointed in the story line and the actors (at least the Tudors had some eye candy this has none)but I do think that some of the costuming is good, however I am not well versed in Italian garb and am interested in what others have to say about its accuracy.


Thanks!

[Lady Kathleen of Olmsted]

About 30 years ago  Masterpiece Theater, when Alistaire Cook was host, had a series on The Borgias. Very good!

I will have to get this one when it comes out in DVD because I do not have Showtime.

[Cilean]

Yes!! A resounding yes!! I can say? For 1492, they have it correct for at least one City State.  I adore the older woman's outfit, and I love how they are embellishing the fabrics! I was just watching the previews and I just informed the hubby we have to have Showtime now!

Cilean

[Lady Kathleen of Olmsted]

Some fashion stills from the series...The Borgias. They look very Italian in design and well done....

http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3557276416/tt1582457

http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3523721984/tt1582457

http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3691494144/tt1582457

http://www.imdb.com/media/rm3574053632/tt1582457

[operafantomet]

I agree, it looks rather good (solely based on pictures I've seen online)!

It has the usual mistake of using excessive X lacing in front and back of garbs. But that goes for basically all "Hollywood" costumes. It's a myth we'll never get rid of, and frankly something I expect to show up. Not saying I like it, though. For the ladies there would also be a lot more dresses with "V front", probably an overdress worn over an underdress or stomacher of some sort. Like these:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/siena/landi1492siena.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/siena/signorelli1505e.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/roma/unknown15thcsaintvatican1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/roma/lippi1490rome2.jpg

There is the dilemma of how Lucrezia Borgia actually looked. Thing is that several depictions are said to be of her, but none is ever confirmed/proved. The most famous one is is a portrait by the Venetian artist Bartolomeo Veneto, showing a young, blonde woman with bare breast, a wreath of laurel, and flowers in her hand. Newer research see little link to Lucrezia Borgia in these attributes, however, and consider it a portrait of a courtesan in the shape of Flora (as was common in Venice).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Bartolomeo_Veneto_001.jpg

A more likely one is a depiction of a young lady as Saint Catherine in the Borgia suite in the Vatican. It was decorated by Pinturiccio for the Borgia pope, and it was custom to use members of ones family in such mural depictions, even as stand in for saints.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lucretia_Borgia_Pinturicchio.jpg

Seems to me like the Borgia series has used both these as basis for their Lucrezia, without copying any of them. Which I think is good research. I also think the opulence of the fabrics is well suited to tell the tale of the Borgias!

[Sorcha]

Ooo...  I have seen the adverts for this which had piqued my interest, but I don't have Showtime either.

Thanks for the IMDB links Lady K!  
I really like the sleeves on that maroon Joanne Whalley dress.  Looks like the lower half of them is velvet??  I wish I could see the whole dress.

As far as the other costuming goes...   Looks like there is budget and some knowledge behind this one. Mmmm...  Eye candy....  Hooray!  Can't wait to see more.

Edited to say:   I found this!
http://theborgias.wetpaint.com/page/The+Borgias+Costumes

[operafantomet]

Edited to say:   I found this!
http://theborgias.wetpaint.com/page/The+Borgias+Costumes

Oooh, THERE'S the V shaped, short bodices! Lovely.

[Lady Kathleen of Olmsted]

I noticed that too!

I have come to the conslusion that when a period drama is done to the scale as The Borgias, ELIZABETH R, RESEARCH is so important to get everything right for that time in History.

As with THE TUDORS, the story line is very good, but the problem is that the Costume Designer did not research nearly enough from portraits as to how the court of Henry VIII dressed. Many of the costumes are 30 years into the future. As Henry VIII aged, he grew fatter, balder, and more sickly with Gout.

I am picky about films and TV series set in a particular time frame.

[gem]

In fairness to costume directors, they don't really have the final say over what gets into a production (ask our own Lady Stitch!!). They have to follow the directors' whims and vision for a show, and their costumes are there to help create that vision and story, whether it's historically accurate or not. I read somewhere (Margo's list? or Tribes?) that the CD for either "The Tudors" or "The Other Boleyn Girl" was actually quite knowledgeable about period costuming, but that simply wasn't the impression the director wanted to give (and anyone who's ever seen even a moment of those shows can tell there is NOTHING remotely historical about either of them! So why should the costumes be any different?).

My favorite example of a movie's theme or feeling taking precedence over historical accuracy in costuming is this wacky linen hat on Jocelyn in "A Knight's Tale:"



On first glance, it's *horrible!* What is that thing?! But after repeated viewings, I realized the CD was giving us the impression of moneyed ladies at high-end horse races ("the sport of kings"), in a pseudo-medieval context:



So in a way, that awful hat is actually half brilliant.

Of course, we all love it when a director believes accuracy is an important element of the storytelling, but that's all too rare. But I say blame the DIRECTOR, not the costumer.

[Sorcha]

Aww come on gem!  Fat, bald and sickly with gout gets me to tune in everytime.  He he.... 

But you're right gem...  It's the line between marketability and historical accuracy.  This one seems to be walking it nicely so far.

[Cilean]

Yes,

Costumer Designers do know and they have expertise and experience, but it amounts to nothing when given or told they need the character to be something, for instance the Henrician Sleeve being light and airy the movie "Elizabeth"  she was to be unfettered, she became more and more burdened with responsibility her clothing became heavier.

Gem, while the clothing of the Main Characters were interesting, the background people were in perfect garb.  Plus



Could be a Coif and veil like this:



Or a Truncated Henin like this


We ordered Showtime and it is on sale for free the first 3 months, so why not eh? I will take some pictures from my TV and post them for tomorrow. Now the clothing to me? Looks Florentine, but I am not as well versed in Roman garb, but I love the fabrics they are using!!! I really enjoy the fact that they are using stripes so much!

Here is one example of the stripes being used, and I love all of the Silk as Italian City States had a strong Silk trade.


Here are the siblings:



Mother of the Pope's Children:




In History we can look at these portraits:




I can see where the CD got his/her inspiration and I hope? They do a costuming discourse I have sent a message to Showtime stating people would adore getting the chance to see what the CD wanted and how the clothing evolved.






More later!

Cilean

[isabelladangelo]

From what I've seen of the stills, I'm sort of "eh" on them in terms of accuracy.  They are pretty but, honestly, Ever After did a better job.   Just looking at Lucrezia's blue dress - cross lacing, tabby things at the shoulders, and the trim placement looks off.   Actually, it may be because there shouldn't be any lacing whatsoever visible if that is supposed to be a 1490's Venetian.   It just looks costume-y to me, as I've stated elsewhere, and not like clothing.   

[Genievea Brookstone]

Thank you everyone for your opinions about the costuming.

Gabriella Pescucci is the costume designer for the series.  I will be interested in hearing what those of you who are getting Showtime now think of the series it self.  As I said I am disappointed in the storyline, actors etc.  For a story that takes place in Italy that is rich in culture and about one of the biggest *families* to shape the history of Italy, I was expecting a little more from it.  I hope it gets better as the series goes on.

[isabelladangelo]

Patterns that it looks like the series might have actually used (honestly, in a couple of cases, it looks like the exact pattern...)

http://www.ecrater.com/p/10944425/mccall-pattern-2645-alicyn-exclusives-misses10-12 < Mccall's 2645 

http://www.etsy.com/listing/14672439/mccalls-2806-misses-renaissance-costumes < Mccall's 2806; one of my person favorites for a very long time since it is easy to remake for a more authentic look

http://mccallpattern.mccall.com/m5444-products-7840.php?page_id=494  < Mccall's 7840 which is still in print

http://cgi.ebay.com/Ever-After-Renaissance-Wedding-Ball-Gown-Pattern-10-14-/380253875774?pt=UK_Crafts_SewingPatterns_EH&hash=item5888e5ae3e < Another very popular one back at the turn of this century ;-)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Simp-3812-Misses-Renaissance-Ever-After-Pattern-/310234850547?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item8e073cdf3b < When they re-released it, they only changed the pictures.   

Each of these need some help -some more than others.  Darts need to be removed, trims need to be kept to a minimum (slashing the lower part of the sleeve/gauntlet was popular), but many of the dresses in the series and the patterns look to be one piece, rather than three separate pieces (chemise, undergown, overgown).

[Cilean]

It is not Venetian by any stretch, but the styles are more reminiscent of Florentine Gowns of the time period.  The Costume Designer is an Oscar Award winning Italian who has basically grown up in and around movie sets, I think she started when she was in her early 20's. Personally I think she has been influenced by Zeffirelli's Romeo and Juliette. I really like how she has portrayed the sleeves, and how she has used stripes.  I love the silk taffetas and satins, the lighter tones for Lucrezia as she is young, and the robust colors for the who are more mature.   I wonder once she is married if her coloring will change I have a hunch it will.  I am very impressed with this series, they could have done it as badly as the Tudors, but instead? Ladies are wearing lovely Camcias (that is the term for an Italian Smock), Embellished and some are so lovely they must be silk.  I am pretty much hooked on watching this series, unlike the Tudors, once I saw how badly the thing was costumed it lost all luster for me.  I do hope? Ladies will get more hats, the CD seems to be using only one type so far.

I don't like that people are still showing too much hair. but I love that the Belle of the Vatican is blonde something Italian ladies strived for back then.

Let's look at these pictures:



Again I shall show Lucrezia's Mother who is in an awesome gown



Here is my rather poor take from my TV, I shall attempt again tonight so it does not have the shadows


Which to me? Looks like this portrait without the Gammura



And to get patterns for this? I have some right here for you!!! Of course none of the silly commercial 3:

Reconstructing History has a later Italian Gown:
http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/products/rh508-fruitseller-or-common-womans-dress-1

Mediaeval Miscellanea
http://www.mediaevalmisc.com/pp-041.htm


I also have some awesome websites for Blogs and Diaries:

Festive Attyre: While she is more into the 19th Century, she still has some awesome information and research on her site
http://www.festiveattyre.com/research/index.html

Guilded Raiments
http://www.jennylafleur.com/diary/ren02.htm

Kat's Purple Files
http://katerina.purplefiles.net/garb/diaries/diary%20list.html

Kiara Panther's 1488 Garb
http://www.angelfire.com/zine/kiarapanther/garb/1488italian.html

Striped Gown!
http://www.shipbrook.com/karen/dress_diaries/beatrice/


I hope this will give a better example of what is in the Borgias and what is not.

[Sorcha]

Here is my rather poor take from my TV, I shall attempt again tonight so it does not have the shadows

This is an interesting sleeve fabric! I almost looks like a knit or weave??
Straight across ties in the front.  Hooray.

This is a lot of good information Cilean.  I need to really take some time on your post. Thanks!

[operafantomet]

It is not Venetian by any stretch, but the styles are more reminiscent of Florentine Gowns of the time period.

Here I must protest. The dresses aren't particularly Florentine. Florentines lady of the time wore plain gamurras with wider overdresses overneath, often with splits in the sides. I think the Borgia costumes have a more Venetian flair in that aspect. Venetians wore more elaborate underdresses with more details in front and in the sleeves, and with tighter-fitting overdresses. The use of silks were also more dominant in Venice (which imported in large scale from the Ottoman empire), Lombardy, and Siena and Lucca. Florence had silk industry, but for export. Wools were much in use in the 15th century, especially for the gamurras, with fine silk brocades only used for very special garbs. Browse through Festive Attyre's galleries anew, and I think you'll see more wools than brocades.

That said, the style worn across most italian city states reminded a lot of eachother, it's mostly Florentine style that stands out as a bit different. Florentines had a more pious view of life, and a larger wool trade. The time of the Borgias was also contemporary with the monk Savonarolas rule of Florence ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girolamo_Savonarola ). Savonarola was in direct opposition to the Borgia pope, naming him as a source of sin. The latter excommunicated him, and eventually it lead to the execution of the monk. Savonarola saw all kinds of earthly vanities as a sin, and had large bonfires where books, art, clothes and jewelry were burned. Of course this affected the fashion of Florence.

If anything, I'd rather point the dresses out as Sienese and/or Roman. Sinea was in Tuscany, but tried hard to separate themselves from the Florentines. They were more influenced with what happened in the Veneto (Venice) and Lazio (Rome) regions than neighbor city state Florence. But again, as Isabella points out, the dresses borrows a bit from each region and from pure costume aesthetic, to get a generic and beautiful late 15th century look. The concept underdress/overdress, for example, seems to have been merged into one layer.


Example of Venetian dresses of the era:



Examples of Florentine dresses of the era:



Examples of Roman and Sienese dresses of the era:

[Syrilla]

Wow, Thank you ladies for all of your input and knowledge on this era!  It is a time period / location that I have very little knowledge about.  And now I do, and it makes me want to make something high waist-ed and flowing!

[Cilean]

My Comment:
It is not Venetian by any stretch, but the styles are more reminiscent of Florentine Gowns of the time period.



[/quote] Here I must protest. The dresses aren't particularly Florentine.[\quote]




I am sorry, it is my thoughts since I have been watching the whole series, so far, I am so sorry my camera's battery is now dead and I am charging it, so I will attempt to get the different photos of the ladies (which I hope we have more, because Lucrezia moves too much to get a good pic of her!) As stated the Florentines to have gamurras and there are some that have this, my thought was that the CD wanted to have a mixture of times but I still think these are more Florentine, You of course can have your own opinion that is what life is about! LOL   


I also have to take pictures of the "Jews" in the "Moor" episodes as they are quite interesting!!  So I hope I can do justice and show some more styles!


Syrilla! I know I fell in love with Florentines 10 years ago because of the use of silks, I love adding pearls and sparklies to my bodices!

Cilean

[operafantomet]

Yeah, I guess it depends on the eye of the viewer. Whatever the case, they finally give the general audience a glimpse of early Renaissance style in mid Italy. Now I'm awaiting the same about the Medici duchy of the 16th century... but I would probably snark the costumes to death, so maybe it's a good idea it hasn't emerged yet...

Anyone wanna bet this series is because of the game "Assassin's Creed 2", set in Renaissance Rome? A friend of mine is totally obsessed with it, and the main quest is apparently to assassin pope Alexander VI Borgia. Funny thing is that he's a true Play Station nerd, and now he wants to know everything about the Borgias and other prominent families of Rome. If he wants that, I can only imagine how many others out there who's wanted the same...

[Genievea Brookstone]

We have to game, and I have to say they do aa amazing job in it from the scenery to the garb to the story line lol.  In fact it was because of the game I started looking into the Italian clothing. Shortly after we got the game,  one of the Borders bookstores in the city was closing and I managed to score a wonderful set of books... The Great Painters of the Italian Renaissance for $40...the books normally go for $150.00.If you can find the set they are well worth it!

Last night the story line finally started to pick up finally in the series.

[operafantomet]

This is not really related to the costumes, but I'm currently in Rome because of an art history course I'm participating, and yesterday we visited the Borgia apartment in the Vatican. The apartments belonged to pope Alexander VI Borgia and his family. In other words the ones depicted in "The Borgias". The apartment consists of 6 rooms of various sizes, and they're all impressively decorated, between 1492-95.

One of the rooms are newly restored, one is under restoration. The newly restored one looked fantastic, and they had also revealed so far unknown decorations on the walls.

Without describing every room and every detail, here's some pictures from the various rooms in the apartment:


Picture from the newly restored room. It had a comfortable fire place, and the walls were decorated with illusionistic draperies, as well as shelves and items. Over the fire place is the coat of arms of the family; a red bull to the left, and yellow and black stripes to the right.




The floors were so impressively decorated, with glazed tiles. They had intricate patterns, both in the pattern on each tile, and in how they were put on the floor. This went for all the rooms. So cool.




From what I understood, these were newly discovered on the wall: the golden pattern of the draperies, as well as the shelves with items on display. One shelf had the papal tiara studded with pearls, another had exclusive plates, cups (like real-life displays used during festivities). The golden pattern is often referred to as "Vinci knots". Leonardo da Vinci was very fond of this kind of intricate pattern as well, but he did not invent it as some people believe.



The roof decorations and fresco on the short walls in the "Lives of the Saints" cycle. The larger wall has the "Saint Catherine of Alexandra disputing with the emperor", in which one thinks Lucrezia de' Borgia is depicted in. That one is to the right. To the left is restoration work in progress.

[gem]

Wow, Anea--that's incredible! Thank you so much for sharing those photos. It's amazing to see the mix of ancient/traditional Italian decoration (elaborately painted wall scenes, etc) with very "modern" Renaissance features (fireplaces). Beautiful!

[Syrilla]

Jaw dropping beautiful and very jealous of your location!

[operafantomet]

Glad you enjoyed it! My internet access is sporadic, so there's a lot more I've wanted to share which must wait a while yet. But the apartments really is fantastic. Alas since some of the walls are bare today (they probably had real drapes/carpets originally) they use the rooms for displaying modern art. I wasn't a fan of that. I can only imagine how it looked originally, with decorated floors, drapes, frescoes and decorated roofs, along with few but exquisite pieces of furniture. And people in glittering clothes and jewels!

Ironically I'm writing about the apartment above the Borgia one. Pope Julius II della Rovere finished the structure and got it decorated by Raphael. Mostly because he despised his predecessor, the Borgia pope, and didn't want his opulent (and at this time old fashioned) apartment as his home. The apartment of the Rovere pope is today knows as "Raphael's rooms" or "Raphael's stanza". VERY different from the Borgia one.

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raphael_Rooms )

[operafantomet]

Dress galore!



Both of these are from the same room of the Borgia apartment in the Vatican, from the "Lives of the Saints" cycle. The first shows three young women representing temptation in the desert (note their demon feet, wings and golden horns). I love the dress of the one to the left.

The second shows saint Catherine of Alexandria disputing with the emperor. It's thought that Lucrezia de' Borgia was used as a model for this figure. For whatever it's worth, the saint is dressed in a fashionable and contemporary dress, and the long, blonde hair corresponds with descriptions of the named Lucrezia. But there's no known portraits of Lucrezia to compare with, and no written sources on the subject either, so it's only an interpretation. It was not uncommon to put prominent family members into such large mural frescoes, though. Again, I love the dress. Look at that hem! I also love the "Vinci knots" in the patterned blue dress fabric. A paler, but straighter version can be seen here:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Lucretia_Borgia_Pinturicchio.jpg

Both are photographed from underneath, so their faces in particular are a bit off. But the colours are rather faithful to how they appeared on site, and as you can see they are much bolder in colour than most online reproductions.

One interesting thing to notice is that most of the gold decorations are put on top of a layer of wax. The wax is used to create a raised field where the gold is applied - especially for buildings, but also for stuff like the saint's halo, the V neckline, and the horns of the temptresses. This gave a cool effect which is often missed online.

[operafantomet]

Watching the first episodes of "The Borgias" now. Great drama, mixed on the costumes, and already loving Jeremy Irons. Looking forward to digging deeper into it.

However... I know it's petty of me, but I thought the use of art in the intro was kinda... fail. They should have stuck to period appropriate Italian art. Mixing in Caravaggio (Baroque) and Cranach (German) seemed very unnecessary. I know the general audience couldn't care less, but it would have been no problem for them to find similar motifs from Italian Renaissance art.

I'm sure the mixture of art sets the mood well. But it makes as much sense to me as watching an intro of Titanic with art from the 1910s and the 1970s. You should have a good and/or artistic reason for doing it. In "The Borgias" it felt more like laziness.