TRF Campgrounds - constructive input

[mpullen]

I've deleted the old thread, as it went south fairly quickly.

What I want is constructive input, so that I can put together another presentation to Terre after this season.

I plan on retiring in a couple of years (yeh, I'm 61 now and getting tired of the daily corporate grind).

Although an unpaid volunteer campgrounds manager for SWFF, I believe I have the "insight" on what folks want and how to achieve the goals.

You want to eliminate the Ravers? Okay, put forth a plan.

Same thing for keeping out the riff-raff. Remember that taking a stern plan may cause problems for innocent folks.

I strongly believe in limited access into the Patrons campgrounds. That causes problems with folks wanting to just come into the campgrounds to visit friends. There has to be a means for visitors to be approved by the visited group and granted limited access (not overnight).

I've received many comments on the cost for camping, concerning a per vehicle versus a per person camping pass. I think the present $20 per vehicle cost would be better established with a limit of $20 per a family camping fee, where the "family" is defined as two adults and two children. If you enter with four adults in the vehicle, then you pay more. By the same token, if you only have one adult in the vehicle (often the advanced scout for a group), you only pay $10.

Remember that the TRF camping fees have grown over the years, mainly for the labor to cleanup the campgrounds after each weekend. At SWFF, it's the managers (including me) who have to cleanup the mess on Monday. Ever have to pickup a camp toilet bag filled to the brim that was left by the port-a-john? Not very pleasant. When the contractor sucks down the Johns and the suction gets blocked by a bag, guess where they deposit it? Same with bags of trash that don't make it to the dumpster that people have to pass by when they leave.

Okay, give me your inputs. Name the problem and your intelligent solution. Remember that a solution will probably cause another problem. So if someone posts a solution you don't agree with, provide constructive critism and a counter solution. If this thread goes south again, it will get restarted. I'd love the group admin to grant me individual message deletion privs, to eliminate the trash and informative messages after incorporation into the initial message.

Initial message below
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Proposed Improvements to TRF Patron's Campgrounds
The following comprises a "dream list" of various modifications to the land and procedures.

Most of this is based on two years of experience in establishing, maintaining, and improving both the Patron's and Participant's campgrounds at the Sherwood Forest Faire.

This is a priority list, with security being the highest priority.

A.   Campgrounds Security

1.   Personal Access Control

Presently, there is no system to prevent non-campers from entering the campgrounds from the parking lot. There is the vehicle tag sold at the entrance or Quickie-Mart ($20 per vehicle), but that only identifies the vehicle. Anyone can wander into the campgrounds during the day or evening. Most thefts are during the day, when campers are attending the Faire. Most of the established groups leave one or more folks in their area during the day to maintain security, but the solitary camper has no such protection.

Recommend changing from a vehicle camping pass (presently $20 per vehicle) to an individual camping pass. At SWFF, we charge $10 per adult (14 and up) and $5 for children (6-13). We issue color coded wristbands, and only folks with wristbands may enter the campgrounds. Of course, when I laid out the Patron's campgrounds, I had the idea to keep access paths into the campgrounds as controlled as possible. We have the main access with a security booth where vehicles enter and leave, and another security booth for persons entering or leaving the campgrounds from/into the Faire. Only people with wristbands can enter the campgrounds. If an individual wants to "visit" the campgrounds, they either have to purchase a camping wristband or leave their driving license (to be returned after they complete their "visit").

2.   Vehicle Access Control

Presently any vehicle can travel up any of the lanes in the overflow parking lot and into the Patron's campgrounds.

Recommend cutting an additional road approximately half-way through the overflow parking lot, from row 1 to row 21 (?). Gravel from each row above this new road to be scraped down to pave the road and also form a barrier berm.

This new road will be the access to overflow parking during the day and exit traffic during the outflow at closing, so as not to restrict the outbound traffic.

This will restrict vehicle traffic into/out of the campgrounds to the paved roads on rows 1 and 21(?).

If TRF has a bulldozer and operator on staff, then costs are only fuel and labor. Otherwise estimate $80 per hour and 10 days to complete road building. This will also clean off the gravel and increase the future camping area, plus areas for the showers (modification B) and flushing toilets  (modification C).

B.   Showers

Very primitive showers can be constructed for about $6K per 6 stall structure. These are wooden structures elevated above ground level. Water flows out the base and downhill. Recommend two structures with 6 showers in each, installed around rows 6 and 16 in the overflow parking area that has been blocked off (suggestion A.2 above).

Costs are constructing the showers and running water and power piping from the closest point in the TRF area (think the flushies by the main entrance). Adding hot water heaters is about $300 per electric water heater.
?
C.   Flushing Toilets

This requires the most construction costs, as both water, water storage, and power infrastructures are required.

Waste tanks must be installed, best along the new access road, so that the contractor can empty them when they service the other port-a-johns in the campgrounds. Port-a-johns along the campgrounds paved road can be eliminated. Terre has indicated that the toilet can be tied into the present sewage treatment plany.

Toilets will be next to the showers (suggestion B), so only two rows of camping are blocked.

Costs are about $10K for each water storage tank and pump and $30K for each toilet structure (concrete block enclosure with 6 toilets). Additional cost are the daily cleaning crews.

D.   Reserved Camping Areas

One item that has proved out quite well at Sherwood Forest is reserved clan/group camping. Each clan/group maintains their area and they can leave structures (tents/kitchens/storage) in their area throughout the run of the Faire. This brings a more personal responsibility in maintaining their area and reduces overall maintenance costs. Groups will add trees/bushes/fences to show their area with no cost to the Faire.

This is another reason for expanding the campgrounds area. There is an increasing number of folks who have found that camping is the best alternative to enjoying a day at Faire and then having to face the outbound traffic.  They can enjoy a full day shopping and being entertained and then spend time in camp sharing stories and then being ready for the next day in Faire.

Added on 10/17

With the increased campgrounds area this year, there is increased demand on security maintaining law and order. With limiting access into the campgrounds, enforcement should be easier.

[Bonny Pearl]

Ravers
Not sure how hard it is for the gate people to discern who is a raver and who isn't when they come in and set up camp.  While I am sure they have trained eyes for such things, they can't really turn them away on suspicion.  So what is the scenario now?  Is it when an incident occurs, security is called, witness the disturbance, give a warning?  If security has to come back, they watch the group pack up and escort their vehicles out the camp gate?

Then are the ravers on the road which makes them a danger to sober people driving?  I would hope there would be a swift sobriety check once they are out of the gate, before they get on 1774.  Or can they do a sobriety check before they get in the car?  I suppose it would depend on the situation, don't know much about drug/alcohol laws and what an officer has to see in order to do a search of a vehicle.  Can they search a tent in the grounds?

This really seems like something that would be best worked out by law enforcement and implemented.  While we can suppose and give talking points, it's all up to what can legally be done.

Camp Fee
All I know is that I don't want to pay more than what we pay now lol.

Personal Access for Visitors
Sounds like a lot of work for such a large camp.

Showers/Privies
It would be great if they invested in showers and flushies.  I know a lot of folks would be happy.

Reserved Camp
Don't want to be forced to meet any kind of attendance quota.  Other than that, reserving a spot sure would make a less stressful land grab.  People get pissy if you ask politely to not camp so close and they get pissy if you ask not so nicely, so either way that part of setting up camp sucks.  Plus security shouldn't have to deal with land rights arguments at the beginning of a weekend.  They could be scoping out trouble makers instead.

Best of luck with all of this Mike!  I will keep a look out for your progress posts.

[Breandan]

Ravers- increase security, not just manpower, which would only need a small boost, but get them off their butts to be more proactive. If needs be I will start getting the names of officers I see sitting on their overpaid keesters who do the typical extra-duty job routine of sit-on-butt-and-soak-up-pay-from-civies-I-despise. I am sure a lot of my fellow current and former LEOs will be more than happy to do the same to get the ED moochers out and hire personnel- private or LE- who will actually do their jobs. I have seen numerous cases in past years where officers sat on their ATVs flirting with women while there was everything from underage drinking to drug use going on less than fifty feet away. They need to start being proactive instead of reactive, and respond to camper complaints with something more professional and useful than "that's the way faire is, deal with it."

This can be improved through a couple of means- 1) have a non-LEO security manager who works for the faire directly and oversees the security for the company, someone who has a background in LE and security operations, but is also not a current or former member of any of the departments involved so that there won't be the good-ol-boy network or bias. 2) Increase patrols of notorious trouble spots. The problem children tend to camp in the same general area each year, monitor them more closely and adapt patrol routes and times when they get wise to it and move or shuffle their illegal activities. 3) Call boxes as well as signs with the contact number for campground security direct, so that when something DOES happen people can get an immediate response. 4) Make it abundantly clear that any officers who want to soak up the 'easy money' and not do their jobs will be terminated. There are a dozen different LE departments in the immediate area- King, Grimes, Waller and Montgomery county sheriff's departments, Montgomery PD, Todd Mission PD (who should be a helluva lot more on the ball as this is their day job), Conroe PD, DPS, and a butt-tonne of constables precincts (who love their ED jobs). Don't touch HPD, they lose ED job sites to private firms all the time for incompetence and laziness, I speak from numerous encounters with them doing EP work. Additionally, having a "cop shack" like the one by the fence separating Patrons from Participants at or around the core hot spots (fire circle primarily) would create at least some presence deterrence for the problem people.

[Lady Rosaline]

One thing that bothers me is this:
   " If an individual wants to "visit" the campgrounds, they either have to purchase a camping wristband or leave their driving license (to be returned after they complete their "visit")"
  While leaving their id is a good idea, it puts those who are 21 or older but look young in a compromised position. I for one get checked for id anytime i purchase alcohol or at faire when security sees me drinking. If I was there visiting and wanted a drink, I would be in quiet a situation if I were to be id'd.
A solution to this maybe, leave a deposit equal to camping fee and a visitor wrist band. Both to be returned when leaving? Not sure how well it would work but an idea.     

[Captain Teague]

Simply put, enforce a Quiet Time curfew. Say 11 PM. If the "fringe rave partiers" can't party ALL night, they will quickly move on to other places to raise hades ALL night. I have never camped at TRF but it is looking to me on the sidelines that the fringe crowd has found a cheap and easy place to be a$$hats for the cost of a day or two Faire admission. And it is assured that the income from that is rapidly running off far more lucrative customers. Security of course will need to take each case at face value. A small gathering of several participants grooving to a few acoustical riffs in a lower setting is definitely not 12 gazillion decibels of NON Faire genres.

And many have complained that they do not want to sign up, get wristbands etc. Sorry but if you want these problems gone with the fringe participants simply using the faire as an easy excuse to have a "safe" place to party down with no actual faire participation, some sort of order must be in place so that security can do their jobs in the easiest fashion available to them. And do not blame the promoters or security, blame the fringe that is causing said problems. One wristband for a one day pass (different color per day ), a second for a two day and one WHITE one for a visitor (who must leave at midnight ). So that security can just pull up and say show me the bands and then they can move on quickly and not take up much of your or their time.

Again simply put, showers and flushies cost money. A LOT of money considering the contractor costs, upkeep, utility bills, stuff to maintain them, staff to maintain them and additional insurance, not to mention EPA standards. Not picking on Bonny whatsoever, I have heard this comment from a lot of sources and while they are a great and wonderful idea, someone is going to pay for them. Meaning campers. Price ANY campground anywhere for the difference between primitive and advanced style and it is clear enough. Nor does it help for anyone who has primitive camping to just leave their trash and/or any other sort of refuse lying around because they think that is staffs job. PICK UP YOUR OWN CRAP. You are allowed the privilege of even having campgrounds available to use at all. Many Faires will back me up on this I am sure because no camping is available at all. Respect the grounds you are allowed to use.

I have seen more than my share of many and vast assorted posts about the camping and TRF in general. Some valid, some not so much, period. I would suggest many look at it from the other side of the coin. The economy has hit one and all with one large sledgehammer. IMO, especially Faires as they are considered by most danes to be the far fringe of weekend entertainment, so they get cut loose first and foremost as extra money spent out. And has everyone forgotten that TRF offered their staff, grounds and utilities to help with the efforts in fighting the recent wildfires over there? None of that was free in the long run. Seeing people complain because TRF did not offer free child admission coupons this year was in a word, ludicrous. Perhaps they wanted the gate costs to go up instead.

So, cut them some slack and stop asking for thousands of dollars in upgrades, instead offer some constructive ideas for improvements.

But that is just my piece of eight on the matter. Someone who is trying tooth and nail to even beg the time off and attend with a 9 hr drive each way. And making sure I have enough money to spend at least a little on the vendors and entertainers at this faire who in turn I hope will keep on selling and participating in Faires at all. Yes I certainly read the how much do you spend at faire thread as well. I openly admit that we are a little more blessed than most but when I read of a huge number of those who spend less than $50 per faire, well...do you really think you are supporting your faire? IMO, you are just another dane tourist. Support your personal faires with at least constructive ideas, not just gimme ones. TELL them online or even better in person how much you appreciate them. And by all means, if you have a few dollars to spare, SPARE THEM. Many wonder why their favorite shows or vendors have left the scene. Bet if you were to ask them, many would say they were not making any money. Fantasy and Magick aside, it is of all bottom lines, a business. And businesses have to make money.

/soapbox off.


( And I do not envy you your job, MPullen. But I do thank you for your concerned efforts on the behalf of TRF )

[Sir Martin]

*  Topic Stickied  *

Ladies and Gents - thank you for the informative responses.  We have a couple threads that wander a bit (all part of the fun), but let's keep this one as on-topic as possible.

We are most fortunate to have TRF management reviewing our input and maintaining a continuing dialogue with us.  The few times I've visited the campgrounds have been an enormous amount of fun, so I can only imagine the great experiences you veteran campers have had.  Looking forward to thoughtful input and continued improvement in camping at TRF.

[Glaodian]

Quiet time is not a bad idea.  And it does not mean bedtime either.  Just means that the loud music has to be turned off.

[Fenster]

I proposed on another thread that no electric music outside of personal stereos be allowed in camp at all.  When they show up with their gigantic speaker and light setups security could come right over and tell them to take it down or leave. This would leave drum circles and music for just your camp untouched. And it would cut down on the undesirables in my opinion.

[Bonny Pearl]

My quota statement is in reference to one of the rules Sherwood has/had on reserved camping which Mike helps run.  The set up there is clans work/improve the grounds they would like to hold, improvements are within guidelines, etc., and has/had an attendance minimum for each weekend faire is open.  Some clans are huge and can meet that but others cannot.

I wouldn't say reserved camping areas is elitist, it's just setting up semi-permanent residence for groups that have been attending for years and new groups that want to have that camp experience as well.  A lot of groups spend serious amounts of time, effort and money on their camps for ambience, convenience and so on.  Reserved areas are a boon for the groups and they know it and appreciate it.

Wasn't referring to profiling, just recognizing anyone that is coming back for more even though they were arrested or whatever say the previous weekend.  Either way, it is up to what can be done within the extent of the law.

[Mead Swilling Lech]

Something that may help is for folks to explain their demographics along with their comments and suggestions.  This may help TRF management determine what their consticuency is.  In our case, we're a family of 4, with a teenager and a toddler.  We enjoy camping in Patrons and when we do we camp with an established clan/group because they are people we know and ejoy hanging out with, and for the "safety in numbers" effect.

There are limits to "personal freedoms" on TRF private property.  This is one thing I have never understood about enforcement vs non-enforcement by security personnel.  Should someone OD or die from alcohol consumption, you can bet there will be a lawsuit against George and TRF.  So why not be more proactive in an effort to prevent such a thing.  While an increase in security participation would initially turn some people off, I think in the long run it is something that 95% of campers will appreciate.

A "quiet" time is also very reasonable with some provisions.  I would feel pretty confident that drumming or acoustic instruments within a camp would probably be acceptable to most.  Giant speakers and stereos are and bright lights than can be heard from 100-200 yards away are probably not.  The problem is that this can turn into something subjective and I am not sure how to deal with that.

One thing I would hate to see change is access for camp visitors.  As it stands now, if we are not camping we pull our vehicle in to the McLot camp.  This allows us to visit with friends while everyone is garbing up.  After faire, we head back out to camp and shoot the bull until traffic dies down and then we leave.  Perhaps campers should be able to ask for "visitor" tags.  For example, if Bonny knows we're coming out, they could grab one of these hang tags for us and give it to us when we arrive to hang from our rearview.  This would then be a sign to security that this person will be here a while, but is not camping.  It gives you the further check that "Hey, I got this pass for this person, so they are my responsibility."  This would keep people from just handing these out to people they are unfamilliar with.

[Bonny Pearl]

Yep Lech clan details is a good point.

We are with Clan McLotofus, we have about 90 or so members, some active in camping, some not.  Attendance for McLot varies by weekend.

At TRF, on the Big 3 we average about 40-45 people camping in our clan.  We are not a restrictive clan as far as not wanting our members to be a part of other clans.  So we have members that move around during the season and camp with who they want in order to spend time with people they may not see otherwise.

On other weekends we usually see a max of 15-20 people.

We are a mixture of tents and trailers.  We typically set our trailers and vehicles up to create borders (fence ourselves in so to speak) to keep the tents safe from cars driving through and such.

We traditionally camp in Rows 8-10, sometimes 7-9 if Safe Haven isn't there.



On a side note Lech:

CatAstrophy and Advent day tripped it to faire last Saturday but were not allowed entrance in the camp gate to park in the rows close to camp.  They had plans to visit folks after close of faire. So it looks like if you want to park by the camp area, a camp pass may need to be purchased.  Not sure if this is a new policy or if it was because management didn't expect enough of an attendance to warrant opening parking up on that side, but just wanted to let y'all know so you won't be surprised.

[FaeHollow]

I am with Fenster on the "quiet time". Catch them before they have a chance to start and surely they will leave.

I know participants are not supposed to mingle with patrons at camp and as it is they have to basically sneak over to hang out. Would the no visitors provisions make it even harder for participants to visit? If I had friends drive 4 hours in to faire I should be able to see them when I am off the clock without feeling like I am breaking all kinds of rules.

[Strange]

I am with Fenster on the "quiet time". Catch them before they have a chance to start and surely they will leave.

I know participants are not supposed to mingle with patrons at camp and as it is they have to basically sneak over to hang out. Would the no visitors provisions make it even harder for participants to visit? If I had friends drive 4 hours in to faire I should be able to see them when I am off the clock without feeling like I am breaking all kinds of rules.

I think that as long as cast members are not in costume, or shop types are not trying to vend, then participants should be able to visit patron comping as much as they like.
We're already restricted from drinking while faire is open. It seems crappy to tell someone who has worked all day that they can't go visit a group of their peers on their off hours.

[ravic]

Regular participants, vendor & boothies, have an easier time of it as we can blend in , so to speak. Same with some of the lower ranked, less recognizable cast. Not so with the higher visiblity cast. Many years ago, George decreed, that in order to maintain the illusion of faire, higher visiblity cast was forbidden to mingle in patron camp on pain of termination. That actually has happened a few times over the years. Not recently tho. I would recommend any cast to weigh the odds first.

I agree about out of town guests that come to see you. Especially as you can only have limited interaction with them during the day.

[raevyncait]

I can see keeping up the illusion, but I also think that with the exception of a handful of folks who are definitely recognizable out of character/costume, it shouldn't be a problem. Also, I would think that somewhere in the neighborhood of 95% or more of the campers are the die-hard playtrons, and are 1. more likely to recognize someone out of costume/character, and 2. recognize the difference in the person and the character, and therefore do not want or expect the illusion to extend beyond the PUBLIC areas of the festival, much less into the Keep or either Campground.
I have a dear friend who, while not a performer herself, is in the shire on a participant pass as a performer's assistant. She drove out into the campground with me just before the end of the day on Opening Saturday, changed out of her garb into street clothes, and nobody was any the wiser as she visited and had dinner with us until he was finished with what he needed to do, which didn't require her presence, as it was an additional, trial thing, and not part of his contract.