TRF Campgrounds - constructive input

[PollyPoPo]

I have not camped at TRF for years, but would like to again. 

Demographics:  I am a few years older than MikeP, retired, and have a little money to spend, but not much.  I'm slow, but love to watch the kids run and young lovers dance; my only objection to scantily clothed women is that I'm jealous because I'm not young anymore and everything has fallen.  Happy drunks make me smile, mean ones do not.  I can stick my nose in the air with the best of the fuddy duddies, or kiss a leprechaun I've never met while strolling the lanes at TRF (on the cheek, of course).  In the past I have always camped with family, but at Sherwood was granted the opportunity to camp with a clan where I felt safe camping in the woods.  I try to be pleasant, but a person's right to swing his arm and hand ends about a foot from my nose (or several feet from my grandkids); so there you have it.

For what it's worth, here's my 2 cents on some issues raised (make that 50 cents worth – multiple posts with lots of words).  In a lot, I agree with what others have posted:

Fire Circles and music:

I agree with idea of three different permanent fire circles (even if there are no flames, each could be a center for specific music). 

1.   Circle where the big clans camp would probably naturally evolve into a voice, drum and pipes, etc.,  area – no electronics. 

2.   Fire circle in the family area would most likely close down earlier and in general be lower keyed. 

3.   By separating the electronic music from the human powered music, some of the problem encounters between burley inebriated Scotsmen and drug addled "nekids" might be avoided.  Might not be as interesting, of course. 

4.   As for the volume apparently reached last weekend (October 14-16), Faire management seems to be addressing that directly.   Management might be able to forestall such happenings by making, and enforcing, a policy regarding volume and time constraints, as well as limiting the laser show/strobe lights.  If Faire management chooses to not have any restrictions, then patrons would at least be warned and make attendance decisions accordingly.

Group Locations:

Unless there is a reason for the current arrangement of having two quiet areas (family and participant) on opposite sides of the entire area, I would suggest the following:

1.   Rearrange camping facilities to move family area close to Faire grounds so that the quiet family and quiet inside participant areas would be adjacent.   

2.   Designate the outer-most area as electronic music permitted.  I believe that would be what is now family camping.  The train should add to their music experience.  It would also distance the light show more from the quiet areas.

3.   Center area would be for non-electronic music and general camping.

4.   Changing the areas might result in a weekly "land grab" by the established clans (kind of how they do now), or something more stable could be worked out with the large groups of people, such as designated areas as in Sherwood.  TRF is a mature faire and  I don't know how anyone could go about creating dedicated clan areas for setting up sites and leaving tents up through season.  (I am afraid Sherwood might hold an informal patent on that feature.)

5.   An empty area or "road" between each major area might be of value.  Campers could wander back and forth between groups or choose to stay in their comfort zone.  Whatever floats your boat.   

6.   Like it or not there are at least three distinct groups of campers out there.  As much as we would all like to come together, head bang in unison, and kumbaya, sometimes those groups step on one another's toes, music, and sleep.  Why not give them each a little space to dance. 

7.   The real trouble-making riff-raff problem could be greatly reduced by changing the pricing structure (separate post from me), as well as concentrated law enforcement.  Catch a thief, arrest them; whacked out on drugs, go to medical or jail, whichever applies, etc.  Make it uncomfortable and costly, they will go elsewhere. 

[PollyPoPo]

Pricing:  (My 10 cents worth here)

(Premise – A big Faire is expensive to run and to attend.  No way around it any more.  If someone wants to camp, they are going to have to pay.  It is just a matter of how much and whether someone can afford it.  Sorry.)

1.   TRF has a huge attendance.  Free camping is no longer useful as an inducement to get more attendees.

2.   Added income by closing up loopholes would most likely offset the increased cost for extra employees and "bookkeeping" regarding passes.  

3.   To prevent freeloaders and non-camping thieves, as MikeP indicated, erect some kind of barrier between camping area and general parking.  

4.   Carload passes can be eliminated and campers pay "by the head" to pay for upgrades to camping and to ensure everyone pays a share of the cost of camping.

5.   Set camping price to $10 per adult, $5 for kids 5-12 or so.  4 years and under can get in free.  Maybe offer one kid's pass free for each adult pass bought to help out families.  (Please note, Faire has been advertising more and more targeting families, so giving them a discount would fit with the intent of management.)  

6.   Everyone (except 4 years and under) needs a Faire ticket in hand when they buy their individual camp pass or be required to buy one at the same time.

7.   When camp pass is purchased, Faire ticket could be marked (big, bold, and unmistakable) CAMP PASS PURCHASED or really big hole punched so they cannot be reused to obtain camping passes on other weekends, nor passed to others coming in so they can get their camp passes without buying Faire ticket.  

8.   Not sure if it is done now, but TRF could offer a seasonal faire/camping pass like Sherwood does now.  Even at full price of $10 per weekend, the convenience to people who camp frequently might be worth the cost.  Or in the same line, offer to sell group camping tickets preseason in conjunction with the Faire tickets sold now.  Tickets bought at the same time as camping passes would, of course, be marked CAMP PASS PURCHASED.  Anything to speed up the process at the door.

9.   Identifying Faire ticket as already processed for camping would ensure one ticket for one camp pass, but the Faire ticket could be used another time (as pointed out, someone might have a valid reason not to attend faire that weekend).   It would still achieve the supposed goal of not letting people camp who are not going to Faire.  As for camp pass cost, that cost would be gone, just as if someone goes into Faire, then has to leave 15 minutes later.  Once you're in, you don't get money back.

10.   Camp passes can be marked with weekend number or date so they cannot be reused.  (Prepurchased group tickets would be exchanged for the specific weekend when the camper arrives.)

11.   Restrict access to campgrounds to those people with passes or who pay the equivalent of camp pass (if they have a valid ticket) or camp pass plus cost of ticket.  

12.   If someone is visiting, they are still using the camping area.  They buy a camp pass.  If they leave before a given time they could get back all or a portion of the camp fee.

13.   Participants wanting to visit "could" show their Ids instead of paying, but if their employment agreement says they are not supposed to be in patron campgrounds that's a whole different problem depending on how much they want to visit.  

14.   The bracelets used at SWFF might work instead of paper passes but some people do not like wearing them.

15.   Put in place a policy of "leave camp without your camp pass and you pay again" (or leave deposit equal to camp pass and ticket while you retrieve your camp pass from campsite).  Unless you're with a friend who is willing to run into camp and bring your pass back with them, showing their own pass at the same time.  

16.   Faire could use the services of employees as gate keeps and sellers of camp passes, etc, and not law officers.  (I do not know if they are doing that now or not.)  This might offset some of the added costs of stricter control of campgrounds and at the same time free up law enforcement to do their jobs.

[PollyPoPo]

Camp Improvements:

1.   Add physical barriers for security and ensuring equitable revenue.  Make it seem more secure - more people camp; more people camp - more revenue to pay for improvements; more improvements – more people want to camp.

2.   Flush toilets would be a major improvement over the port-a-potties situation.  Centrally located and highly lighted, open area in view of law enforcement as they make their rounds (gonna have a few drunks fall asleep sitting there).  Might also serve as a drop-off point to pass lost and/or malfunctioning campers onto the officers for safekeeping. 

3.   Over time flush toilets would save money over port-a-potties.

4.   Showers would be great; however, unless they are installed at the same time as toilets,  I would seriously suggest that toilets go in first.  Without toilets, there might be a concern of people taking a shower and, e'hem, bodily fluids could be "inadvertently" mixed in with the shower water outflow.  Might or might not be a problem, depending on where the outflow goes.   

[PollyPoPo]

Law Enforcement and Security Perceptions.

1.   Faire may be private property, but the laws of Texas still apply. 

2.   LEOs need not investigate every smell that might be maryjane, but need to act on any obvious drug use or sales going on.  Just saying "oh, it's just faire" does not cut it coming from law enforcement.  At least tell them to put the bong away before they go to sleep (said with tongue only slightly in cheek).

3.   Faire management is paying for law enforcement presence.   Officers wandering down the lanes shouldn't be a problem or infringe on personal freedom to have a good time, get loud, etc.     

4.   Groups having to leave someone in camp each day to specifically guard from roving thieves merely reinforces the idea that camp is a lawless no-man's land.  Was it ever really that?  Is that the image TRF wishes to portray?

5.   Civilians handling security problems may, sooner or later, lead to legal problems and law suits directed at those civilians.  Asking, gently or emphatically, that a drunk move along is one thing; body blocking a drugged out fool is another. 

6.   Officers on duty at the Faire would handle problems on-site if possible (only as allowable by their authority) but process chargeables to appropriate law enforcement as jurisdiction dictates.   A little high from being too close to the smokers?  Sleep it off.  Carrying enough to supply half the camp, go to jail.  Caught stealing?  Hang 'em from the nearest – oh, sorry, wrong century. 

7.   Instead of campers trying to find the "home" of obviously drugged out teens (or even grandmas when it happens), they could be escorted to the officers on site; said officers would then be responsible and be required to take appropriate action.  Lost drunks might be able to just sleep it off in camp.  Drug users lose their stash, get processed through the system, maybe pay a fine, jail, or, worse, Mommy and Daddy get called to pick them up.

8.   As for officers watching idly while civilians attempt to restrain someone out of control, hey, there are a lot of cell phones and cameras out there.  These situations are simply law suits waiting to happen.  (Actually I am surprised we have not heard more on the incident of the naked guy first weekend.)

9.   I don't know about Texas law, but in Illinois some categories of law enforcement (court officers)  had the option to interfere in what they perceived as illegal; others (cops on the beat) had an absolute duty to interfere. 

10.   The internet is everywhere now; the supervisors of any officers working TRF are reading these forums, too.  We may not be privy to what's happening, but sooner or later something is going to hit the fan. 

[Singed]

I hope this is not too far off topic, but my post does concern the campgrounds.

I'm sure RVs, generators and loud music blasting with a full night club atmosphere does far more to shatter any illusions than patrons or cast members visiting friends in the campgrounds after hours.  

I don't complain about that rule, I don't go to the patrons campgrounds often, perhaps twice in the last several years, but banning participants from patrons camp really makes little sense, especially in light of the fact that the "Rennie" community includes both patrons and participants.  Mixed groups of both patrons and participants leave TRF and meet in Magnolia for dinner as it is, we see each other at the Shell station, we communicate on Internet forums and Facebook, groups of us get together in the off season.  It is really not like we don't know each other or some perception will be damaged if a prominent cast member visits a clan's camp.  

Many of us, participants and patrons alike are friends, some are family, and often we only see each other at Faire where our interactions are limited by our roles as vendors and performers where we are asked by TRF to remain in character (which is of course why we are there in the first place).  It would be nice to be able to let my hair down a little so to speak and have some OOC interactions with certain friends after hours and off the grounds themselves.

A rule saying cast members or vendors visiting camp must behave appropriately in public, no vending, and not do anything detrimental to TRF's public image with proper sanctions put in place would seem more reasonable.  Perhaps requiring cast members to appear in camp only in street clothes and not represent themselves as employees of TRF in any way (other than showing a pass to the guard at the shack, see below) would also be reasonable.  

My opinion (because I know TRF management reads this):  Stick a guard near the dividing fence at one of the pedestrian gates, maybe the one nearest the vehicle exit that participants use nearest the campground and check passes.  It also has the side effect of adding another static guard post that someone (from either side) could go to if help was needed and increasing LEO visibility (again good on both sides).  No need to allow participant vehicle traffic through the patron's gate to camp, no special passes or privileges.  TRF doesn't have to encourage such visits or do much to accommodate them other than placing the guard, which also has benefits to TRF and the patrons who camp, but allowing the visits and providing a legitimate gateway for them doesn't seem much to ask.  

[mpullen]

Good Grief!

Now we have some on topic, rational, intelligent, reasonable suggestions.

Okay, what happened, who are you people?

Actually, thank you all (especially PollyPoPo for some great stuff). I'm sure TRF management hears your concerns. Some things can be done quickly, others take months or years.

For those who have not attended Sherwood Forest Faire, let me give you some background. My involvement began about a year before opening, when the grounds were still dense woods and with only some of the fencing installed. The owners had a layout of the Faire area, but the campgrounds were still not firmed up. A rough road was cleared through the campgrounds, but is was the sugar sand so only a few vehicles could drive in the area.

I volunteered my services as the campgrounds manager (unpaid, but still rewarding). I recommended additional roads to form the present layout. The owners had gravel laid to form passable roads (BTW, gravel is not cheap) and we had port-a-johns and trash dumpsters the first year. I also requested that the campgrounds have an area available for reserved camping by the groups I knew from TRF. This was granted and I contacted everyone I knew, plus visited camps at TRF to sell them on the idea. It was slow at first, but took off rapidly before opening weekend Year One. Groups knew they had to work hard to clear their area, but they had a guaranteed area they could call their own, plus keep tents/trailers/etc setup throughout the faire season. Thus groups only had to haul in the supplies for the weekend and have everything else ready to go. Some of the groups get the idea of using their area and maintaining the site, so there has been a couple of groups either losing their claim or voluntarily giving up their claim.

It's now Year Three approaching and the reserved camping area is fairly full. I have an area that I have been holding that will be available for two or three fair sized groups (15-20 members).

We now have showers (with <gasp> hot water) and flush toilets (yeh, we have to reconfigure the access for the campgrounds during the evenings after closing, but give us time).

Access into the campgrounds is rigidly controlled. We have a dedicated booth attendant who ensures people have Faire tickets or purchases them to be able to purchase the camping wristband. Only people with camping wristbands can enter the Patron campgrounds. Exception is folks with Participants passes, as we have no problem with Participants either camping in or visiting the Patrons campgrounds. Folks who have purchased a Friends-of-Faire pass get a free camping wristband each weekend. Generally, everyone in the Patrons campgrounds must have a wristband (which can also be on a mug, belt-loop, or whatever as long as it is visible). We do not have a law enforcement presence in the Patrons campgrounds (unless they are called in). We have a dedicated security force of Faire staff members who frequently make rounds.

We have had only a few incidents in the reserved Patrons campgrounds, which were quickly resolved with a couple requiring law enforcement officers to come onsite. Never-the-less, law enforcement officers can (and will) make tours through the campgrounds during the day and evenings. They are not paid by the Faire and we have no intentions of hiring LEO for security unless things get beyond our control.

In summary, the layout and operation of the Patrons campgrounds at SWFF were established before the first opening weekend, but we are still refining them as we discover new needs. Changing the TRF Patrons campgrounds is more of a challenge, as things are about 20X more complex. First concern is upgrading security without degrading camper enjoyment. Anything else is secondary.

Keep up the good suggestions. My advice is not to attack the suggester. Attack the suggestion with concrete counter proposals. Don't say the idea is stupid - state why/how and give a better idea. Most of you have years of experience in the campgrounds and have seen the good and the bad.

Wish I could camp this year at TRF, but company vacation time is about used up and cash is short. See ya at SWFF in 2012.

[mrsmccunn]

simple question: does Todd mission have noise control ordinance?

If so, could it be enforced on the extremist loud speaker to the whole campground freakinoids? at 1001 Dreams was way too loud and too late!!!

Participants have an 11p quiet time rule in camp, but that fence between sure did nothing to allow sleep for the working crew!

I do so like the idea of moving the partiers way out to edge of camping!

[Breandan]

here's a thought- since the train runs by it anyway, move the party camping to where "quiet camping" is now, and switch them out

[Riot]

here's a thought- since the train runs by it anyway, move the party camping to where "quiet camping" is now, and switch them out

It was actually over there years ago

[Taylor Blu]

here's a thought- since the train runs by it anyway, move the party camping to where "quiet camping" is now, and switch them out

An amount of space would be needed for sound to not be bothersome.  Also to discourage the wondering drunk from making the journey.  It would help if we knew why the quite camp was moved as Riot stated.  Maybe then we find the best workaround.

[Riot]

here's a thought- since the train runs by it anyway, move the party camping to where "quiet camping" is now, and switch them out

An amount of space would be needed for sound to not be bothersome.  Also to discourage the wondering drunk from making the journey.  It would help if we knew why the quite camp was moved as Riot stated.  Maybe then we find the best workaround.

I'm sure it isn't the only reason, but I know there was a situation with some rennies and the train. I don't know the details as it happened on a weekend I was not there. I'm sure there are other reasons too, but I know it was the year right after this incident that the camping was moved.

[Breandan]

one word: fence.

Well, two words: fence, Darwinism

those are pretty much the choices at this point

[Strange]

Exactly.
-thinning the herd
-chlorinating the gene pool

Seriously tho, the train blows loud and long for more than the entire length of the grounds, starting near the participant's back road.
If you're out of it enough to be caught there at that time, that's not bad luck, that's the hand of fate.

[mpullen]

here's a thought- since the train runs by it anyway, move the party camping to where "quiet camping" is now, and switch them out

An amount of space would be needed for sound to not be bothersome.  Also to discourage the wondering drunk from making the journey.  It would help if we knew why the quite camp was moved as Riot stated.  Maybe then we find the best workaround.

I'm sure it isn't the only reason, but I know there was a situation with some rennies and the train. I don't know the details as it happened on a weekend I was not there. I'm sure there are other reasons too, but I know it was the year right after this incident that the camping was moved.

Yes, the death march was from the present quiet campgrounds. I believe the incident involved pumpkins on the railroad tracks. Or was it folks passed out along the path to the campgrounds? Those 30 rows were hell to stagger through in the dark.

The problem with switching the present campgrounds assignment is that some of the groups (Chaos for example) have some very personal reasons for their area. I will not state the reasons in an open forum, but it involves deceased members.

The problem isn't rows 1-8, as those group areas tend to be fairly quiet (yeh, we have had some private parties with drumming and some interesting events (unqueenly, topless slip-and-slide, Loki contest, etc.)). There were those strange folks 3 years ago that setup the tall teepee with gas blasts around row 6 playing techno music, and the sadomasochists with the whipping post around row 4. The problems are around the fire circle area (row 11) and back around row 20 on the backside. That's where most of the LEO involvement occurs.

[PollyPoPo]

MikeP,

Back on topic, sort of anyway.

Perhaps this forum topic might get more concrete ideas if all of us out here had an idea of WHY TRF management provides a non-participant camping area.  To be honest, I do not know.  I am simply asking the question, not making any judgment. 

Was it originally intended to promote attendance at the Faire itself?  Is that its purpose now and in the future?

Is it intended to be an inclusive area for all types of campers with only a tenuous connection to the Faire itself? 

All types of campers would include, at the extremes, the following:

a.   Families with children and/or grandparents;

b.   Those who wish a place to collapse after a day in Faire who may not even be aware of noise levels;

c.   Renfaire friends who gather for a drink and a holler around their fire (or lanterns);

d.   Anybody who wants to gather around a big bonfire (hopefully) and drum circle for dancing and general merrymaking?

e.   People who use the main fire/drum circle for electronics and serious partying.

f.   Partiers who are willing to pay the camp and Faire entrance fees to get a big place to pull all-nighters with no legal or physical constraints on their activities.

The TRF official website gives little guidance other than no guns, no fires, pick up your own trash, and cops come around sometimes. 

Perhaps TRF management could share  their vision of the use of the campsite.  Then suggestions could be more forthcoming.