Renaissance Festival... grr!

[Bahlien]

Okay since there isn't an actual discussion section, I thought I'd post here.

I had a heated debate with a good friend of mine on the way home the past weekend about some of the policies of fair and some of the changes that have been made this year.  Specifically whether or not the fair was a "fantasy" fair or not, and if it should be treated as such.  Also whether or not that fantastical characters should be allowed. Even from patrons.

   My argument is yes it should be treated as "fantasy". And yes, fantastical characters should be allowed.

A) we no longer live in the time period we're attempting to portray.
B) It's not an ACTUAL recreation of the said time period. (FOR many reasons)
C) It would be terribly boring if was a recreation. 
D) Without the fantastical characters there would be no magic to the fair.
E) With the cutting of some of the street cast this year, there IS a drop in said "magic".


  It being a complete recreation would require everyone to acquire actual period clothing, made from period cloth.  No food served could be cooked by modern methods. No soda stands, no shops using goods made from modern methods or materials. The list could go on. With all that in mind a good number of people who sell goods and work any wonderful Renaissance festival would be either out of work, or incredibly exhausted from having to do things the old fashioned way. Not to mention EVERYTHING transported in would have to be done so by wagon and horse.  Just as well for our wonderful fair, it would have to be put closer to a source of water.

  There's just too much to be done to have it treated as an actual recreation. So that leaves it only to be treated as a fantasy fair. IS there anything wrong with that? No. Not at all. It's a place removed from reality, where people can talk with accents, dress as knights, dragons, princes and princesses, kings, queens, fairies, Scotsmen, gypsies, knaves, beggars, pilgrims, nuns, priests, elfs, nymphs, pirates, rogues. Anything they want! Thats what creates the magic, the energy, and the LIFE of any renaissance festival.

  It really gets me when I hear people saying that someones outfit isn't the right period. Or that there may be to many mythical characters, or that they shouldn't be allowed at all. Especially from the higher ups! They have no idea how much influence that all really has on the fair.  Attitudes like that just destroy the whole thing, and its something thats been more present this year. Maybe I'm the only one who has noticed it?

Anyway thats my rant and now I'm getting off the soap box.  Feed back is welcome!

[Capt Gabriela Fullpepper]

Bahlien

For the most part I agree with you.

Fantastical creatures such as fairies, dragons, unicorns and such should be allowed. These things help make it a magical place for children and adults. They should be there as cast because you would see limited interaction of those not cast dressed this way who are playtons to the crowds if they were not.

While I must admit I for one am a wee bit tired of seeing so many pirates and barbarians and not enough wenches, peasants, middle class and noble types of playtons, those types (pirates and barbarians) belong there just as much as everyone else. And Capt Jack is a great one to have around once again for the patrons. I did get a kick seeing Obi-Wan and Princess Leia on opening weekend.

My one and only big complaint with faire is the Noble court. If we have King Henry, let us have Queen Katherine of Aragon, Anne Boleyn, Jane Seymour, Anne of Cleaves, Katherine Howard and Katherine Parr. Then add in Edward, Princess Mary, Princess Elizabeth, Cardinal Wolsey, Princess Mary (Henry's sister), Thomas Cromwell and many other's of King Henry's court. I don't even feel that they have to look like them. But then again if we could get VIII to Colorado or anyone else who really did look like King Henry it would make it more educational.

Personally I had a kick being stopped many times to be asked if I was the Queen. Having a dozen little girls come up to me to talk to me or try and give me map pieces really made my faire experience that much more fun. And to think I wasn't even cat, but I was sure treated as such dressed as Katherine Parr dress, French Hood jewelry, attitude and all.

I look at the Renaissance Festival in this way. It is a great place to make it a place to learn of past history in all forms. It is fun to look through wares NOT made overseas for the most part. Even if crafted with modern technology, I can trust that the majority of any item I might consider buying is not made in China.

As for the food. I think what they have is a nice sampling of the NOT so ordinary items that people get at McD's or other fast food resurants.

I for one enjoy looking at ALL costumes historical in design or style or not.

I for one would never work the faire as I refuse to sell food, cook food, or work for a vendor. So I just play and have fun and enjoy all the sights.

I will add that 1 "DUMB" drunk barbarian gave me a great story as to why my chalice is now bent out of shape.

I was drinking out of it and as I walked by he said "HEY DUDE" So as Toki and I now say, he came on fresh to this noble and I beaned him over the head with my chalice. Searves that filty Barbaian right for hitting on a noble. And thus adding yet more fun to my one visit of many to this years faire.

So you have my 2 pence worth... or not.

[Blushing]

(pardon the cross-posting)

One of my favorite quotes: "Renaissance faires are an opportunity to wear funny clothing and run amok" ... I wish I knew who to give credit to!

Notice the lack of additoinal adjectives in front of clothing ...

Part of me cringes at some things ... like when some asked why I was not color-coordinating ... and I am generally annoyed at turkey legs (they're an AMERICAN bird, almost a national symbol, but that's another story), but that's all in good humor.

But I LOVE faire ... the history, the fantasy the atmosphere, the entertainments.  I try not to nit-pick the details - especially the historical accuracy, since to go to extremes would drain such a big part of what makes a faire wonderful ... in my opinion.

[Princess Alice]

the nitpicking in general tends to ruin the magic of it.  especially because the patrons love the variety and most of them don't care whether or not we're all "period".

[Mischief Snicklebritches]

Lady Delaney!
I have to say...I am equal parts stung and in agreement with you. I agree that we should make the characters on the court more historically accurate, however, I think they aren't because the fair is technically a fantasy fair, and mixing fantasy and history doesn't seem to work in the minds of the powers that be. If we were to make it all historical, it would be terribly boring, because then of course we couldnt have things like the Unicorn and fairies. I personally think that it would SUCK! without characters like Twig and Periwinkle.

But ouch because, we may be small, but we are a pretty kick weed puller court. Our costumes are just as historical as yours.   8 of the people on court..that I can recall at the moment, men and ladies, are wearing costumes made by the costumer that is there at fair...(Noblesse Oblige)...which are incredibly pricy and as close to accurate as Colorado climate will allow. We are trying....thats all I think that can be asked of us considering our numbers were considerably cut.  there's my rant for the night.

[Capt Gabriela Fullpepper]

Lady Remi

If you re-read my post you will find that I make NO comment about H/A clothing. I state I enjoy looking at ALL costrumes H/A or not.

My comment about the court was not that they are a bad court, or that out of place or not even fun. My comment was meant to say I would rather see a court based on historical characters. If we have Henry VIII, let us have Anne Boleyn, or Anne of Cleaves or any of the other 4. In fact bring them all in, as Henry was having his fun with Anne and Mary Boleyn and Betsy Blout when he was with Katherine. He was having fun with Jane when he was with Anne. He may have been having fun with someone when he was with Jane, He was most diffently having fun when he was with Anne of Cleaves with Katherine Howard, and once again who knows if he was having fun when he was with Katherine Parr.

Toss Mary into the mix instead of Beatrice his daughter-in-law? or who ever his son was. If he has a son lets have Edward even an older Edward would be OK. You can still have just as much fun while being acurate on the court and even have the fantastical, mystical creatures. Remember that Mermaids and dragons were believed to exist in the time of the Renaissance as did fairies.

So back to court clothing. As I state here and on my original post I never said anything about it being H/A or not. Noblesse Oblige is beautiful garb. I have admired it for years. I do not however like them as a business. I found them un-professional. When I was looking for garb that was more courtly I approached them last year and talked to them. I got a business card and emailed them many times. I never once got a responce. So I gave up on them. Yes they are pricy and I was willing to pay their price... I didpay a higher price in the dress I have now. I got it from a forum member who did communicate and wanted my business and I found that Noblesse Oblige did not. Enough said on that buy it, make it or commision it, it all works H/A or fantasy.

If you read my post also on the fantastical characters you would see that I agree that they SHOULD be there. I poked fun at all the pirates and Barbarians. it seems since PoTC the Pirate craze has grown. Don't get me wrong I LOVE Pirates. And the only one of cast I know of is Jack, who once again I love seeing CaptJack doing a great Depp as Captain Jack Sparrow. It is funny that all I see the Barbarians and pirates doing is congregating at the bars to get drunk. Hence the one barbaian saying HEY DUDE! I guess I should ave replied YO, Barb Dowg, Wud Up? Instead I snubbed my nose at him like a noble would.

As I also said Faire should be part learning all fun. Most kids and Most adults have NO idea about this time of history... any history for that matter. At faire they can see glass being blown, and a spinner, and pot maker. I didn't however see the blacksmith and cannot recal seeing him for three years.

So Lady Remi, I invite you to re-read my post. I love CoRF. I have been attending for about 20 years now. Always in garb (accept once). This being the first I had garb that was even near to H/A. Two years ago I wore a dress I thought was great and was even told by vendors it rivaled court. I laughed at that as it was no where near court. This year as I said I was stopped so many times I lost count. First time this has ever happened and talk about improving someone with a very low self esteem. Why did people stop and ask if I were Queen? I guess I was dressed like one, carried myself like one. And in no way am I saying those of court did not.

I did have to admire watching the women of court getting dressed in the parking lot all by themselves. I couldn't do that with my dress if I wanted to. But then again I love the fact that my BF has to help me. It makes me feel more the queen that I am not or ever will be.

So to end this, CoRF is KICK weed puller, I agree 100%, your garb is devine I want some, just the business doesn't want my business. I love the fantastical characters TWIG and Uni Included. Once again I will not work faire as I don't want to be in the food/drink or retail side. If I were to work faire, I would want to do court and I am no actress. Musician once yes and not afraid of talking to crowds, but talking to someone one on one I don't know, that is harder and I applaud the court for being able to do just that. The little girls that wanted to talk to me, I was not sure what to say. i think I do now if stopped again when I come back on the 28th and end of August.

So if I offended you, I did not mean to, or anyone who works faire. Just re-read my post. I even tried to add a bit of humor to make it sound I was for faire the way it stands... with the exception of renaming those in court. I love CoRF, I love Renaissance Faires, I LOVE HISTORY as I am a major History buff.

[Adriana Rose]

Forgive me for what I am going to say here!


If you want a fully historically accurate place to play go and join the SCA! I for one am not going to wear five layers of wool and stand out side in 80+ heat! There is no fair any where that is remotly historically accurate! There are steps by the powers that be are taking to make the fair better even though there is a fair amount of griping from people.
Also one has to look at the patrons, not the die hards like we are but the average Joe that says hey that looks like fun. They dont want to go into a history lesson that they pay 16 bucks a head to get in. They want fun, also there is a debate if we are going *gasp* too Disney. These people bring their kids and they want to have fun to and not have their kids see things that kids should not see. Hence the fairies and the unicorn. If we piss these people off they wont come back and that is money out of the pockets of all the people involved in the festival!

*steps off soap box*

[Tanda]

I was asked if I was a princess by a small girl this weekend. When I told her no, she said, "Yes, you are, you're pretty" She was like 4 or 5 and decided EVERYONE was a princess. It was great. She didn't care who the court was. Or even how they were dressed. She even thought that the groveling peasant was a princess. This is faire.

I agree with Blushing on the turkey legs. More than the potatoes in the beef stew, those bother me. I can play off the chocolate and coffee as being marvelous new discoveries from the New World, but not the turkey legs.

I was having a discussion with someone about character development. He was telling me all this background and tidbits and how his accent came about and why he wore what he wore. I finally stopped him and said, "Three people that come through those gates will care. The rest just want you to be nice to them and have a great butt" I came to that realization after writing two pages of background on my character (a few years ago when we were supposed to have 'depth'). This year, half of my character's background was wiped out by one person adopting one title, so oh well. Nobody knows who I am, and it's alright, I look great in my bodice.

I agree with Lady Delany about not enough middle class, wenches, and the like both from cast and patrons. It's an ongoing problem. We have, I think, 3 middle class characters, if I remember properly, on cast. I thought I was one, but I'm not, I'm apparently upper class...an appointed official and all.

And this year, for once, I can't blame the lack of middle class and peasants on having a huge court. The court really isn't that big this year. Not like the year of six Queens. That was an odd year. "Bow! It's the Queen...and the Queen...and the Queen...and the Queen...and the Queen...and the Queen."  Our Queen is Queen Anne...so it's up to you to decide which one it is, I guess.

I swear that all made so much sense in my head.   

[Capt Gabriela Fullpepper]

If you want a fully historically accurate place to play go and join the SCA!

I personally would have to argue that a wee bit... not a lot however. The SCA is more Medieval and not Renaissance. They fight with wooden sticks and do not allow hits below the knee. They also do not use real sword combating methods. The lay a sword over their shoulder and SNAP it in (At least the group in Colorado did that last I watched them.  I had and and still have friends in the SCA. I looked into it myself, but I'm not into all the politics, nor do I want someone wacking me with a shovel handle in the head.

Now there are groups in Europe who personally I think are totally NUTS who do use real steel to fight in armor. They love it, but that's those blokes, not use Yanks. And injures are common.

But the SCA is as far as I know as historical as it gets in the US for trying to create a society of by gone times.

As for anyone dumb enough to wear 5 layers of wool let alone even 2 in Colorado summer heat... send them to England with those crazy blokes who fight with real steel.

Real Combat... or as real as we can get in these times does happen. If you go to the Estes Park Scottish Highland Festival they do in fact have full on live combat jousting. The joust for a huge pot of money... huge for that sport that is. the 2006 camp broke his collar bone last year jousting in the combat joust. He went on to do the games of skill with it broken on Saturday and was back to the live joust on Sunday. 2 Women jousted and one was knocked silly. Another knight was knocked from his horse and lay on the ground for about 15 minutes.

As for more on the SCA they help run the Colorado Medieval Festival. To me this one is not even 1% of the fun of the CoRF

So just my view on SCA from what I have seen, heard and studied about.


And yes Tanda it does make since even in my head so you did well 

[Adriana Rose]

So I am not the only one that has gotten it!

On the court dress.. Even the gowns that arent from Nobless ( insert drool line here) cost an arm and a leg!

[Mischief Snicklebritches]

Okay....*sigh*
  First and foremost, I honestly didnt mean to start this whole argument...I did read your post again Lady D and I see what you were trying to say. But it still made me feel the same way. I was in no way angry or anything like that, I kind of just felt like "huhooo...we are really trying to do a good job"

I was also agreeing with you about needing to keep the fantasy creatures. A long time ago, we used to have the actual characters Henry VIII and Anne Boelyn...I know because my aunt portrayed her for the fair, and it worked. Why the PTB have decided against having them...I can only guess, but I suppose they have their reasons.

I know more than any one person ever need know about Henry VIII and his wives, I think you are probably the only person that I have seen that can rival my knowledge on the subject. Or at least the only person that has advertised that they know a lot about the era anyway...and I totally agree. If we are going to have King Henry and Queen Anne....why not just add VIII and Boleyn to the ends of the names. What harm would it do? again....I have no idea. We had the 6 queens...what was it...3 years ago now...and that just turned out to be lame, and that may have been a factor as to why they wanted to get away from the historical aspect of it.

I want so much to have historical names and such that my acting partner and I tried desperately to portray the Princess Mary and Charles Brandon this year, but there was nothing doing, they wouldn't have it.
So really, I wasn't trying to stir up trouble or make a huge ranting post out of this subject, I promise, I was actually more in agreement with you than anything, I probably just chose my words incorrectly...it was late and I was really tired when I last posted, so Im sure that was my problem.

So to recap...Im not worried about having H/A costumes, because as everyone knows, its impossible to have those nowadays, well, climacticlly speaking anyway, I wouldn't suppose they are impossible to make...but yeah. I agree that we need the fantasy creatures there to give the fair more magic, but I also think that we need to have historically accurate names for our court members. People know who Henry VIII was and who at least his more famous Queens were, and they constantly ask, so why not give them what they are asking for? However, I accept that the PTB want the fair to be the way it is, so Im really not going to fuss over having a historical name or not, he who has the gold card makes the rules....and that is in no way, me. So until I am rich enough to have my own festival, I am content to be a ficticious character. I cant remember if Ive covered everything...but if I remember anything else, I'll re-post.

xoxox

[Mischief Snicklebritches]

On the court dress.. Even the gowns that arent from Nobless ( insert drool line here) cost an arm and a leg!

Most of them yes, but you would be surprised at the craftiness of some of the ladies....the lady in the cream and brown dress? guess what its made of.....old curtians. lol
all of the ones Ive made have been from those old velvet bedspreads from the 70s....*laugh*

[Capt Gabriela Fullpepper]

if you want good they do if you buy them. Making them not so much but your still going to spend $200 on materials. I know places like Castle Garden Creation is highly recommended in the Garbing part of the forum and they are not horribly costly.

I know My cheapest court dress cost me about $350. it does not fit me very well and I don't like wearing it. Not to mention it is not cotten, but I think Polyester which is BAD in the heat. Cotten breaths and my new dress is all cotten accept for the fur. On opening weekend I did not get over heated. I didn't however drink enough water and was starting to dehydrate. Same thing happened last year in wench wear which still wasn't cheap at least in my eyes it wasn't. I stayed pretty cool in my dress because of my chemise helping hold moisture in. Which is what the people of the desert do. I have formal dresses that are cheaper than my fair garb and still don't fit right.

I fear with Noblesse Oblige that if it was not custom, your going to have to have a seamstress fit it to you to make it fit just perfect. I also say off the rack, they are way to expensive. I'm sorry but if I am going to pay more than $500 for garb, it's going to be custom fit to me.

Just my 1 pence worth

[marchaunt]

wow where to start

1 let's not bring back the 6 wives of henry all at the same time! I hated that-

If we go more historicly correct with the court than we need to give them something to do- I've been on court and we had great bits- among ourselves. We spent a lot of time playing window dressing (not that there is anything wrong with that) At more historical fairs I have worked at we had our own "shows" and stage time where we would bring in the court issues and do a bit of a history lesson

Also we would have to educate the fair and not just the court- If we have Henry and Anne we can not have a prince edward- The last time I was princess (was it really that long ago??) We had Henry with Anne Boleyn, Princess mary (me) and Edward and Elizabeth in full white face (ummm what??) it was odd

As for the SCA- There is no historically correct police so the SCA gets it's fair share of "ren fair wear" and T-tunics. I have been in the SCA for the last 10 years and I wear elizabethan or 1560ish italian there is no set focus of time I have seen everything from togas to musketeers and everything in between

There is an odd us against them mentality between rennies and the SCA and I have seen it from both sides- I still don't get the issues

[marchaunt]

ok- again back to the SCA- the range of correctness falls on the person I have seen some amazing sword work by folks who are translating manuels of the time period and using them

we use rattan sticks because we hit full force and with steel you could really hurt someone. we don't hit below the knees because the risk of breaking someones leg is really high! again you don't want to send anyone to the clinic

The sca does not require that you wear 5 layers of wool- sounds more like the civil war fanatics (they have real high standards) All the SCA asks for is an attemt at pre 17th centruy clothing