Renaissance embroidery

[Wickedvox]

So, I'm learning embroidery and have started a triangle medallion to applique to my most recent bodice in progress. I have a border done, but am wondering if I can just "invent" some image to place in the center, or are there rules? Does anyone have any resources/examples I can use as references?

[isabelladangelo]

There are a ton of rules.  :-D  Since you are doing a heraldic work it sounds like, you might want to check out the SCA's Heraldic lessons pages:
http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/lessons/

They go off the 15th C heraldic rules, I think.  I know that all the rules are based on a historical period set of heraldry rules.  It's a good jumping off point, in nothing else.


Prior to the 1580's - and really well up to 1600- most embroidery was monochrome.  Not all, certainly, but you don't see much multi colored embroidery work prior to then.  The few examples of polychrome embroidery are heraldic, meant for curtains/hangings, or in purses.  (Not a set rule, but most embroidery prior to 1580 was Blackwork of some sort)

Hope that helps!

[DonaCatalina]

Eleonora de Toledo State Hermitage Museum circa 1560. Embroidered doublet bodice.

[operafantomet]

So, I'm learning embroidery and have started a triangle medallion to applique to my most recent bodice in progress. I have a border done, but am wondering if I can just "invent" some image to place in the center, or are there rules? Does anyone have any resources/examples I can use as references?

As Isabella wrote, heraldry has lots of rules, both in terms of which colours one could combine and not ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_tincture ) and what elements to put together.

Heraldic embroidery in clothes seems to have been saved for the grand occasions in life. For general clothes motifs with hopes of a long and healthy life, or a growing family, or different virtues, seems to have been used instead. Flowers of love, beauty, modesty and fertility are frequent in camicias and jackets from the late 16th and early 17th century.

Lots of examples on this can be found in "Patterns of Fashion 4" (the one dealing with underwear and accessories). The little boy's shirt with Jesus monogram and S'es, the Venetian camicia with roses, pansies, pomegranates and acorns, shirts with birds and snails... They all had symbolic value of a long, safe and prosperous life, and for virtues the wearer should possess. Repeated monograms, stilistic to the point of looking purely decorative, are also frequent.

To get to the point... I assume this was more likely to be transported into a stomacher than family heraldry. At least for general clothes not meant for weddings and triumphal celebrations. If you can, check out the PoF 4 book, it has tons and tons of closeups of period embroidery. For visual examples I only have Italian portraits, while most on this board seems to do English style(s). Here are some links still, if you wanna have a look:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze1/baldovinetti1465.jpg
Heraldic sleeve in the portrait of a 15th century Florentine bride.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia1/cariani1530ven.jpg
A vase with sprouting flowers, typically a sign of life and fertility (opposite, an empty vase is the symbol of death).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/bordone1530svioletta.jpg
A rare example of an embroidered bodice. Even rarer, it seems to match the decorated pilaster to the left. I don't quite know what to make of that, but it's a darn pretty dress.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze2/bronzino1545.jpg
Though a brocade fabric and NOT embroidered (I cannot stress this enough), the large pomegranate on her chest has an embroidered feeling, and is very central to both the portrait and the dress. The pomegranate symbolize both fertility and the rebirth of Christ, and was a frequent motif used in clothes of the Virgin Mary. It's not by accident she is depicted with a young son at her side, and with a halo around her head... Propaganda portrait!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/veronese1560snatgalireland.jpg
I assume the stomacher/modesty panel and the shells are embroidered, while the actual dress is made of a rich brocade or damask. But for all I know the whole thing might be embroidered. The shell was a sign of baptism in Christianity, as well as child-bearing.

[operafantomet]

http://www.russianpaintings.net/upload1/author/allori/Allori_Alessandro_-_Portrait_of_Eleonora_Dinora_da_Toledo_-_The_State_Hermitage_Museum_2_large.jpg
Eleonora de Toledo State Hermitage Museum circa 1560. Embroidered doublet bodice.

I frequently see that one labeled Eleonora di Toledo, but it's not the Duchess Eleonora. First and foremost because the Duchess was around 40 in 1560, and she looked thin and sick after years of consumption, rheumatism and 11 births:



As you can see from the title of the file you posted, it has the additional name "Dianora". That was the Duchess's niece. They were both named Eleonora di Toledo, but had different nicknames: the Duchess was called "Leonora", while her niece was called "Dianora":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleonora_di_Garzia_di_Toledo

[Wickedvox]

Thank you ladies! I knew you would be the ones to go to for this! I'm going to have a lot of fun going over all this info tonight--squee!

[LordPaulet]

Also if interested in period embroidery look at smocking and blackwork

[Wickedvox]

Yeah, I've been reading about blackwork and it's too much like cross stitch to me...I hate cross stitch. Also, it looks very hard. And then I would have to find patterns and transfer them--pain. It's *very* pretty though. I think I'll stick with free form. I would love to do smocking, but that too is very time consuming, and that is a luxury I don't have right now. Maybe I'll make a blouse and experiment with it over the next year--a study break project

[Wickedvox]

Okay, I'm bumping my old thread so we can go through this again. I abandoned the triangle because...well...it was a triangle. It turned out pretty but, eh, just not right.

So I have a set of burgundy plain sleeves I may leave open along the back seam because I'm making a high-neck smock to wear under them. The thing--aside from that, they're very plain and so I was thinking of doing some embroidery down the top of the sleeves. Something simple a novice embroiderer can accomplish in, say, a month of Sundays.

Also, I'd like to blackwork the cuffs and collars of the high-neck smock. But as stated--novice embroiderer. I found a really great blackwork primer blog http://www.prettyimpressivestuff.com/blackwork.htm, so I'll go over that at some point, but I need simple designs.

Ideas?? Patterns?? Resources?? I'll take 'em all lol!

Lastly--would you cut out your pieces *then* embroider? Embroider *then* cut out pieces? Assemble *then* embroider? My sleeves I plan to embroider before assembling b/c they will have a lining. But the cuffs and collar will be so small....

[isabelladangelo]

For colored sleeves - IE something that was not sleeves to a smock- they probably wouldn't be embroidered but rather covered in trim.  The vast majority of our embroidery is from smocks and coifs.   Trim could be embroidered but, depending on the station you are trying to depict, I'd go with a nice woven trim instead. 

[gem]

Embroider THEN cut. It's really hard--difficult *and* hard on the hands--to do handwork on small bits of fabric; much, much easier if you can stretch the fabric on some sort of frame. (I use spring-loaded hoops that are almost 100 years old; they are *divine!*)

[Wickedvox]

Okay, so I'll research trims. It's middle-class plain curved sleeves, so nothing elaborate, if at all--right Isabella?

So Gem, trace the pattern on the fabric using tailor's chalk, then transfer the design, right? I'm making a new high-neck smock too, so even if I don't embroider the sleeves I can still use the info

Thanks ladies!

[Wickedvox]

Okay, this is *not* going how I planned. Questions.

Is there an easier way to transfer a design than by tracing over a light box/window/etc?? I mean aside from iron on. I've found a few tips and tricks from books/blogs, but nothing monumentally easy. I have carbon paper and will try that next.

Sooo...blackwork on evenweave--good. Without waste canvas--not so good? My design is coming out "round?" if that makes sense. Can I just keep the design on hand and compare the line length I'm stitching to number of squares on the pattern and stitch accordingly? Is that the point and I'm missing it completely lol?? *Must* I use waste canvas...or *should* I just because I'm learning and need to get used to it?

I think I'm probably answering my own questions in my head, but it's good to have confirmation. I just want to ensure I'm doing this in the easiest and most correct way.

My thumb joint is killing me.

[gem]

Can you show us a picture of what you're trying to do? I am having trouble imagining where the waste canvas is coming in!

A couple of things:
1. You shouldn't need waste canvas at all if you're transferring your design to the fabric. You stitch right over the lines you're drawing. Waste canvas is for working counted designs (which you hate anyway, I thought!) on fabric you normally wouldn't embroider on, like a sweatshirt.

2. Alas, no. Transferring a design to fabric is a PITA, almost no matter what technique you use. Hence the popularity of counted work!  I personally find the window technique a little easier than working with my light table, but YMMV. I like to use a Sharpie, but that's a very bold choice. LOL However, I find it's a lot easier than pencil or any other made-for-fabric pencil/markers out there.

3. Evenweave should be just that--evenly woven, ie, the same number of fabric threads per inch, going in both directions (warp and weft). The term is TYPICALLY applied to fabrics to distinguish them from linen--but in reality, very nice needlework linen is also evenly woven. But because the individual linen fibers tend to vary a lot more in thickness than cotton/rayon/synthetics/etc, there can be a little more variation in the "size of an inch," if that makes sense! (Ie, 34 threads might make an inch along the weft, but maybe a little less than an inch along the warp... or the next 34 threads you count might be a little thinner/fatter, etc.) 

Also, there can be a lot of variance even among "evenweaves," and some manufacturers are notorious for their fabrics being off square. (MGC Textiles, for one.) It *generally* doesn't bother me, unless I'm trying to stitch something that needs to be absolutely square, but you can definitely see in this piece that it looks ever-so-slightly skewed wide.

If you are doing surface embroidery (ie, not counted), then the weave or thread count of the fabric shouldn't be affecting things. My guess is that the way you have the work mounted may be pulling the design out of square. Honestly, on something that will be cut up and used as part of a garment--like a set of cuffs--by the time everything is sewn up and you're wearing them, no one will be able to tell if things are slightly wonky. But if it's really bugging you, show us a photo and we'll see if we can figure out how to fix it!

***
Ok, I just re-read your post, and it looks like maybe you're trying to turn a counted design into freehand work, or vice versa? I do think that sounds like a recipe for frustration! You absolutely do want to try & keep your stitches nice and even and about the same length each time (like with hand sewing), but I would follow the design as it is charted--either work a counted design on fabric you can count, OR choose a freehand/surface design, and stitch along the lines you've transferred.

HTH!!

[Wickedvox]

Can you show us a picture of what you're trying to do? I am having trouble imagining where the waste canvas is coming in!

A couple of things:
1. You shouldn't need waste canvas at all if you're transferring your design to the fabric. You stitch right over the lines you're drawing. Waste canvas is for working counted designs (which you hate anyway, I thought!) on fabric you normally wouldn't embroider on, like a sweatshirt.

2. Alas, no. Transferring a design to fabric is a PITA, almost no matter what technique you use. Hence the popularity of counted work!  I personally find the window technique a little easier than working with my light table, but YMMV. I like to use a Sharpie, but that's a very bold choice. LOL However, I find it's a lot easier than pencil or any other made-for-fabric pencil/markers out there.

3. Evenweave should be just that--evenly woven, ie, the same number of fabric threads per inch, going in both directions (warp and weft). The term is TYPICALLY applied to fabrics to distinguish them from linen--but in reality, very nice needlework linen is also evenly woven. But because the individual linen fibers tend to vary a lot more in thickness than cotton/rayon/synthetics/etc, there can be a little more variation in the "size of an inch," if that makes sense! (Ie, 34 threads might make an inch along the weft, but maybe a little less than an inch along the warp... or the next 34 threads you count might be a little thinner/fatter, etc.) 

Also, there can be a lot of variance even among "evenweaves," and some manufacturers are notorious for their fabrics being off square. (MGC Textiles, for one.) It *generally* doesn't bother me, unless I'm trying to stitch something that needs to be absolutely square, but you can definitely see in this piece that it looks ever-so-slightly skewed wide.

If you are doing surface embroidery (ie, not counted), then the weave or thread count of the fabric shouldn't be affecting things. My guess is that the way you have the work mounted may be pulling the design out of square. Honestly, on something that will be cut up and used as part of a garment--like a set of cuffs--by the time everything is sewn up and you're wearing them, no one will be able to tell if things are slightly wonky. But if it's really bugging you, show us a photo and we'll see if we can figure out how to fix it!

***
Ok, I just re-read your post, and it looks like maybe you're trying to turn a counted design into freehand work, or vice versa? I do think that sounds like a recipe for frustration! You absolutely do want to try & keep your stitches nice and even and about the same length each time (like with hand sewing), but I would follow the design as it is charted--either work a counted design on fabric you can count, OR choose a freehand/surface design, and stitch along the lines you've transferred.

HTH!!

Okay, I think you might be right about trying to freehand a counted design. I'm not counting the threads, I'm just following the lines and breaking it up into how many grid squares are on that line. Yeah, frustrated is a good word lol. Here's a pic:


Or it could be the pull. I can't get the fabric to stay taught!  I read that wrapping it in cotton tape would help, but all I had was bias linen strips from my bodice last year:


So, it sounds like I truly need someone to teach me cross stitch, because I really just don't get it.

Gadzooks.