Sleeve Question: Authenticity/Cartridge Pleating help

[nliedel]

I don't usually get enchanted by things like sleeves from movies, but I do like the sleeves on the Velvet Ruins Dress in Enchanted. My friend bought the pattern, and they are full and longish pieces with eyelets and lace run top to bottom to act to pull the sleeves closer and tighter. Ribbons were used. I was thinking of something similar on a Venetian dress, but button closed at the top and using aglets on the ends of the tightening ribbons. Does this even sound remotely authentic to anyone?

I vaguely remember a question about that pattern on the old boards, and that the Velvet Ruins dress was the most authentic, but that's all I remember. I will be wearing this as a cast member at MIRF. If the sleeves are detachable and somewhat period, even earlier than our time, they can get approval. The fabric and trim are approved.

I am going to Cartridge pleat the back of this skirt and line it with twill, so it really pops. I was going to knife pleat it in the front, so I don't look like a giant green bell. Is that okay? Done? I am trying to find some information on that and am having a hard time. I am playing a character who is Italian, but moved to England. My wardrobe mistress says it is very possible I would use some English elements in my garbing, so she is letting me play, somewhat. Just no shinies.

[sealion]

Can you give us a pattern number and/or link for the sleeves? I'm thinking you may have meant Ever After rather than Enchanted?
As for the skirt pleating, I can't say that I've ever seen a combination of cartridge and knife pleating.  What I have seen (and done) is to simply not pleat the center front 6-8" of the skirt.
(BTW- I'm still waiting to see some photos of your gowns on your blog.  )

[Taffy Saltwater]

Is this the dress you're referring to:



That is a beautiful dress - I just bought a pattern also - going to stretch my sewing muscles, although it doesn't appear to be as difficult as others I've lusted after.  These are a few sites that have an amazing amount of information:

Great site for H/A info:  http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/library/analysing1.htm
Fixing Ever After:  http://au.geocities.com/e_walpole/Ever_After/fixingEA.htm

[nliedel]

Can you give us a pattern number and/or link for the sleeves? I'm thinking you may have meant Ever After rather than Enchanted?
As for the skirt pleating, I can't say that I've ever seen a combination of cartridge and knife pleating.  What I have seen (and done) is to simply not pleat the center front 6-8" of the skirt.
(BTW- I'm still waiting to see some photos of your gowns on your blog.  )

Yes, I know you are and your patience is amazing. One of them is being fixed in the front, cause it needed to be flattened to fit in the smaller bodice and I was terrified of fabric fatigue. The other... I was in the FEnton parade on the fourth with my paned sleeves, actually split, cause it's not really a pane and my husband was dealing with a sick child and could not take a picture. Grrr. I have no photos, good ones, of my garb and I never seem to.

Yes, I won't pleat the center. Much less darn work. Thank you.

[nliedel]

Is this the dress you're referring to:



That is a beautiful dress - I just bought a pattern also - going to stretch my sewing muscles, although it doesn't appear to be as difficult as others I've lusted after.  These are a few sites that have an amazing amount of information:

Great site for H/A info:  http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/library/analysing1.htm
Fixing Ever After:  http://au.geocities.com/e_walpole/Ever_After/fixingEA.htm

YEs, that is the pattern, although I am only copying the sleeves on the red dress. the dress will have a straight back and a pointed front, although not exaggerated. I just like the sleeves, a lot. I love the Realm of Venus and live on it, but I can't find sleeves exactly like that, although some are close. I know I am going to button them on at the top.

I'm scared to death of cartridge pleating. This should be interesting.

[isabelladangelo]

The ruins dress of Ever After is not the most H/A.  I think you might be confusing it with the red velvet gown Margarete wears in the movie?  That gown is based off of Isabella Di Aragon's dress who was the princess of Naples. 

I think the sleeves, and probably even the idea for the ruins dress came from the florentine fashion.  If you take away the bottom black sleeve, and make the upper sleeve a separate piece, you get the basic ruins dress.

Cartridge pleating didn't really come into the scene until much later.  In fact, I've seen no evidence of it in Italy until the 17th c.  They did box pleats, simple regular old pleats, or gathers.  Check out Eleanor di Toledo's burial gown.  The front section only has three pleats on either side.  The back, I think, has a total of six.  They got the volume not from the pleats, but from the cut of the skirt.  Her skirt is a little bigger than a half circle skirt with a wider waist than is necessary for the skirt.  So, they pleated it to the bodice of the dress.

I hope that helps! 

[gem]

They got the volume not from the pleats, but from the cut of the skirt.  Her skirt is a little bigger than a half circle skirt with a wider waist than is necessary for the skirt.

Oooh, could you elaborate?  I'm trying to figure out how to get maximum fullness in the Promenade gown kirtle, with minimum bulk at the waist.  Gramercy!

[nliedel]

My character has moved to England, so I think it might be okay to play with the cartridge pleating. I'm investigating all the sites, but I have nine yards of 54" fabric (thank goodness I am short and with a wide width of another color at the bottom can get a lot of mileage out of nine yards), so big circles are right out.

[isabelladangelo]

My character has moved to England, so I think it might be okay to play with the cartridge pleating. I'm investigating all the sites, but I have nine yards of 54" fabric (thank goodness I am short and with a wide width of another color at the bottom can get a lot of mileage out of nine yards), so big circles are right out.

I made my ruins gown out of a mere 4 yards of 54" wide velvet.  You don't need anymore than 5 yards, max.  Cartridge pleating was late 16th c.  The early stuff, particularly at the time of the high bust, had more a-line styles.  There are a few pleated waists, but as in the Italian, the pleats are simple pleats or box pleats.  If you want to do the cartridge pleating (with velvet!), that's fine, but it's not H/A and I just want to make sure that is known.

Also, I'm not talking about a big circle.  Although, I've never used more than 4 yards in any of my circle skirts, I'm referring to the type of wide bottom skirt found in the extant piece known as Eleanor Di Toledo's Burial Gown.  There is a pretty good picture of the dress up on Katerina's site. 


Gem, image you have a 30" waist line for the bodice of your dress.  Your skirt might have a 40" waistline but a hem of 130".  You simply have cut the skirt in semi circular or trapezoidal panels.  You pleat the 40" to 30" and add the skirt to the bodice.  You can see the pattern of the burial gown in Patterns of Fashion as well as the link I posted above.

[nliedel]

I made my ruins gown out of a mere 4 yards of 54" wide velvet.  You don't need anymore than 5 yards, max.  Cartridge pleating was late 16th c.  The early stuff, particularly at the time of the high bust, had more a-line styles.  There are a few pleated waists, but as in the Italian, the pleats are simple pleats or box pleats.  If you want to do the cartridge pleating (with velvet!), that's fine, but it's not H/A and I just want to make sure that is known.

Also, I'm not talking about a big circle.  Although, I've never used more than 4 yards in any of my circle skirts, I'm referring to the type of wide bottom skirt found in the extant piece known as Eleanor Di Toledo's Burial Gown.  There is a pretty good picture of the dress up on Katerina's site. 


Gem, image you have a 30" waist line for the bodice of your dress.  Your skirt might have a 40" waistline but a hem of 130".  You simply have cut the skirt in semi circular or trapezoidal panels.  You pleat the 40" to 30" and add the skirt to the bodice.  You can see the pattern of the burial gown in Patterns of Fashion as well as the link I posted above.

I'm mucking around with the dress. My ren faire that I am in cast on, is in the mid 1500's. The sleeves I'm going to make are going to be smaller. I wish I knew how to post a pic of the drawing of the dress, but thing the Toledo extant dress, with slightly wider sleeves and not nearly as fancy, since I have to look like a merchant class trying to move up in life. If that makes sense?

It's mostly made up out of my own head. Most of my creations are. I want a different kind of sleeve. I already have a dress with panes and another two piece sleeve set. I want this one different.

[isabelladangelo]

If you are doing middle class, have you considered the Flemish gowns or the working class Italian?  They would be very H/A and perfect for cast.

[Cilean]

Okay so as you can see via this portrait of the Extant Burial gown, how it is really a front piece that is rectangular and then a triangle of fabric and then which connects to 2 more rectangles, another triangular piece and then to the front.  So this would give you more fabric to the pop, so to speak!

[operafantomet]

Cartridge pleating didn't really come into the scene until much later.  In fact, I've seen no evidence of it in Italy until the 17th c.  They did box pleats, simple regular old pleats, or gathers.  

English sewing terminology isn't my forte... but wouldn't these be cartridge pleating? Or is that categorized as "regular pleats"?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze1/gozzoli1464.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze1/gozzoli1464b.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze2/bronzino1541.jpg

Otherwise I agree with you.

The closest I can think of concerning the sleeves of the "Ruins" dress is the portrait of Anne of Cleves, but it's not exactly a perfect match... it's just something about the puffs and gathering bands that reminded me of that portrait:
http://worldofroyalty.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/11/08/cleves.jpg

[nliedel]

I'm living in England now, so it's been surmised my character would mix things up a bit. It does not have to be 100% H/A. I have two that are very close, this is my fun dress for the ends of long weekends, etc. The days I need a pick me up. I have the skirt cut out. Flemish won't work for me, I'm Italian. Italian working class...never found anything that worked for my body type and sewing abilities.

Oh my heck, the Ann of Cleves sleeves are lovely. Won't work. I'm just going with a Spanish sleeve that's detachable, assuming I won't wear them most days. Too humid and hot. It's going to be much smaller than the Margot Anderson Spanish sleeves, but it would work for middle class, following a trend of the upper class and with the size and the open crosses, cool.

I'm off to Lowes today for my boning. I love Zip Ties.

I wish I had the dress drawn up in a way that I was not embarrassed to show it. It's nothing like what I first wanted to do. Figures.

[gem]

Operafan, I've always assumed that the skirt in the last picture (the woman in red, with purple sleeves) is cartridge pleated.  The other pictures, I'm not so sure.  They look more like rolled pleats or stuffed pleats (don't know the proper name for those) to me.

Cartridge pleating (and I'm sure you know this) is essentially very tight, tidy, measured gathers, and they're fixed to the waistband in such a way that the skirt really stands out.  You can see them in this picture.

[nliedel]

My cartrigdge pleats, which I've never done before and may get scrapped because I get frustrated, will only be in the back. The front will be very smooth. I'm using a twill for the lining so it does push out some. It's not going to be nearly as full as an upper class woman's dress would be.

[operafantomet]

Operafan, I've always assumed that the skirt in the last picture (the woman in red, with purple sleeves) is cartridge pleated.  The other pictures, I'm not so sure. They look more like rolled pleats or stuffed pleats (don't know the proper name for those) to me.

Cartridge pleating (and I'm sure you know this) is essentially very tight, tidy, measured gathers, and they're fixed to the waistband in such a way that the skirt really stands out.  You can see them in this picture.

OK, thanks! It's what I thought cartridge pleats was, but I figured there might be nuances that separated them from for example gathers or other versions of... making much fabric take less space...

I have a costume design sketch for another character from "Ever after". I don't remember where I found it (I think it might have been in the web site of the designer or workshop). It shows how various portraits served as inspiration for the finished dress, resulting in an eclectic (=mixing various sources on purpose) style.



The portrait to the left is Florentine Maddalena Doni by Raphael, ca. 1505/06.
The top left is Elisabetta Gonzaga from Urbino, by Raphael or his workshop, ca. 1502
Underneath we have "La Schiavona" from the Veneto, by Tiziano, ca. 1510/11
Last one, "Lucrezia", is also from the Veneto, by Lorenzo Lotto ca. 1528/30

So you see there is a variety in area and timeline they've borrowed elements from (whoa, crappy English...). I'm guessing the same applies for most other costumes. 

[nliedel]

Oh wow, Operafantomet, I've never seen some of those. Wow!!!

[operafantomet]

Oh wow, Operafantomet, I've never seen some of those. Wow!!!

Glad you liked it! Do you mean the portraits or the costume design? It's unfortuneately the only "Ever After" costume design I have, but if you want to take a closer look at the original portraits they can be found here:

MADDALENA DONI: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze1/raphael1506.jpg
ELISABETTA GONZAGA: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/urbino/raphael1502urbino.jpg
LA SCHIAVONA: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia1/tizianschiavona1511.jpg
"LUCREZIA": http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia1/lotto1530.jpg

[nliedel]

The costume design. I thought I was done, but man, after seeing that...help I am addicted to Ren Dresses.

[gem]

My cartrigdge pleats, which I've never done before and may get scrapped because I get frustrated, will only be in the back. The front will be very smooth. I'm using a twill for the lining so it does push out some. It's not going to be nearly as full as an upper class woman's dress would be.

Have you seen Silverstah's Campi dress?  It shows how cartridge pleats with a lighter-weight fabric (in her case, linen) can actually have quite *modest* fullness

[verymerryseamstress]

Nancy (and everyone else), as a replacement to zip ties, give this a try:

http://www.cheeptrims.com/store/item.asp?Category=&SubCategoryID=&GroupID=&SKU=JGQ%2D649025%2D990C

For most people, this is a lifetime supply.  And at $16 for 200 yards, it's much less expensive (in the long run) than zip ties, without any plastic waste going into the landfills because you can trim it to exactly the length you like (as opposed to having to cut off the plastic nubbin on the zip ties).  Cheep Trims does have a $60 minimum order, but if anyone wants to order, let me know.  I usually order every 2-3 months and would be happy to add a roll to the order for anyone who would like some. 

[nliedel]

Nancy (and everyone else), as a replacement to zip ties, give this a try:

http://www.cheeptrims.com/store/item.asp?Category=&SubCategoryID=&GroupID=&SKU=JGQ%2D649025%2D990C

For most people, this is a lifetime supply.  And at $16 for 200 yards, it's much less expensive (in the long run) than zip ties, without any plastic waste going into the landfills because you can trim it to exactly the length you like (as opposed to having to cut off the plastic nubbin on the zip ties).  Cheep Trims does have a $60 minimum order, but if anyone wants to order, let me know.  I usually order every 2-3 months and would be happy to add a roll to the order for anyone who would like some. 

In the future I will,  but hubby is a computer nerd and he just found a huge box of them he didn't know he had. Why the super thick size, I'll never know.

[nliedel]

My cartrigdge pleats, which I've never done before and may get scrapped because I get frustrated, will only be in the back. The front will be very smooth. I'm using a twill for the lining so it does push out some. It's not going to be nearly as full as an upper class woman's dress would be.

Have you seen Silverstah's Campi dress?  It shows how cartridge pleats with a lighter-weight fabric (in her case, linen) can actually have quite *modest* fullness

I've looked at that dress about a million times now. I love it. My back story allows for a bit more middle middle class, if that makes sense. NExt year I may go for something more like that dress. It's scrummy.