Bodice neckline fitting questions

[gem]

Ok, I would kill to be able to swing up to MN for the weekend for the Baroness's workshop, but until that can happen, I'm relying on cyber-advice!

I have a lot of trouble fitting bodices, in part because I have slight shoulders and a not-so-slight bust.  I have to tweak and tweak to get the neckline not to gap, and I usually end up just cutting it down lower, so I don't even have to deal with the swell of the bust.

I found this picture in The Tudor Tailor last night, which shows a properly fitted Tudor kirtle and overgown, with this caption: 

The neckline of the kirtle sits snugly against the body, while that of the gown sits smoothly beneath it.

I wish I could say that picture was a revelation, but my question is how? HOW does the neckline of the kirtle sit snugly against the body?  I've got the lower neckline of the gown just fine, it's getting the higher neckline not to gap that seems mystifying. 

Is it simply a matter of pinching out the gap (in the mockup) and redrafting, over and over, until it fits?  Will it ever fit?  Does the slight upward curve of the neckline have something to do with it?

I know that fitting a bodice properly is the hardest thing in costuming, but every time I think I conquer it, a new mystery confronts me!

Wisdom, O ye Master Seamstresses! 

[isabelladangelo]

I personally don't like Tudor Tailor for a lot of reasons (one being the claim that all dresses had covers for front lacing and that back lacing didn't exist.  There is plenty of evidence that back lacing did exit as early as 1470, if not earlier but that's entirely beside the point...

The shape of a proper kirtle is hard to show without pictures. Basically, it's in the shape of the sides and along the armhole.  You can see a proper kirtle here.  It's later but the shape of the kirtle didn't really change. 

The picture posted is misleading.  I'd take a look at Catherine of Aragon's portrait.  She has a front lacing fitted gown with a back or side lacing overgown.  This is a winter state of dress.  The front lacing gown alone would be a summer state of dress.   There is also another style of gown that could be worn beneath the overdress but that would probably cause more confusion that it's worth.

Notice in Catherine's portrait how the straps of the dresses both come inward a bit to the neck.  The arms are shaped to pull the neckline snug.  I hope that helps explain it!

[PrincessSara]

From the Tudor Tailor, pg. 107:
"Cut a bias strip of lining fabric measuring 1m long by 5cm wide.  Place the piping cord down the middle of the strip, fold in half and trap cord in place with a row of stitching, making sure the cord is sitting tightly against the folded edge.  Sew the piping to the right side of the neckline..."
"Put kirtle on wearer and gently pull on both ends of the piping until the neckline of the bodice sits closely against the skin.  Secure ends of cord with a few small stitches..."

[Baroness Doune]

See the way the ouches are distorted on the top edge of the kirtle?  That is because there is a piece of steel boning in the center front of the kirtle. The piece of steel boning has a bend in it a short distance from the end of the boning and that makes the top edge of the kirtle bow in at that point.  I, personally, do not like the look of that distortion and when I make a Henrician kirtle, I will look for other alternatives.

I find the necklines of Tudor Tailor patterns to be excessively high in the front.  I can make them work as they are but it is MUCH better if I cut them down.  Fortunately, it is an easy thing to cut down the bodice neckline.

The Tudor bodice works the way it does because of a couple of factors.
First of all, the close fit of the bodice.  Without the close fit the bodice rides up and the breasts slide down into the bodice.  The average person has a squish factor of about 2 inches, but a slight person with an A cup will have less.  Those who are more queen sized may have a larger squish factor.  Those who have larger breasts may have a larger squish factor in the bust line but still have the 2 inch squish factor in the waist.

Second, the cut of the neckline.  There are several Tudor patterns which make use of bias shoulder straps which hug the shoulders better than straps which are cut on the straight of grain.  Also, due to the heavy sleeves on Tudor gowns, the back of the bodice tends to be cut rather high and wider shoulder straps get narrower as they pass over the shoulder until they reach their narrowest at the junction of the strap to the front of the bodice.

Those who have larger bustlines will need to angle the straps at the point of junction of the straps to the bodice to prevent gapping at the armcye.

The shoulder straps need to be tight and the tension between the close fit to the body and the tight shoulder straps help provide support to the bust in addition to the boning.  This tension helps prevent gapping.

But I also cheat and add the cording as Princess Sara mentioned as a backup.

Oh, geez, I gotta go work to work now.

[verymerryseamstress]

Gem, do you have a sewing friend near you who could help you fit?  When I fit, I drape and drape, and fuss and fuss until I get the sloper to lay perfectly.  It's always time-consuming, but it works.  I wish we lived closer!  We could help each other with fittings!  I don't have anyone near me to help me with my own garb.  *sniff, sniff, pout*   

If you send me a personal email, I would be more than happy to do a mock-up pattern for you based on your measurements and mail it to you.  You may need to do additional "tweaking" When you get it, but it might be worth a shot.

Personally, I use the Tudor Tailor on a regular basis and it's one of my favorites.  It's one of the most used books in my collection, next to my Patterns of Fashion books.  I recommend this book to everyone I know.

[Lady Kathleen of Olmsted]

Right on Heather!!! I have both books myself and they are so helpful. Doing Mock ups or Muslins is key when working with a client out of town ot across the country. I make 2 sets actually.

Bust height measurements are key for Bodices in that the finished height of the bodice needs to sit at least 1" above the breasts. That measurement can be taken from the shoulder by the neck edge to where the center of the breasts at the nipple. Corset edges set there as well.

How a bodice fits and sets on ones body does  determine the overall look. Looking at portraits also can help.