camping question for long-term clan members

[xed]

Hello, all. 
After closing weekend on the campgrounds I thought I would come by and get some advice from some of you folks who are in long-standing clans.
My clan, The H.O.R.D., has just completed its second official season as a camping clan.  We used to camp at D-22 (a stone's throw from procrastination) for many years before we were 'official,' and up until last year.  Now that the campgrounds have been renovated, we were forced opening weekend of this year to move our camp onto the hill at C-22, because a road runs directly through part of our old campsite. 
That's not the issue, it's a much better camping spot. 
The issue is that last (closing) weekend, we were beat by members of naughtyham to our camping site by a matter of minutes.  Several of our members at that time discussed with their representatives the fact that we were expecting a large group of rowdy individuals and that we usually camp directly where they were in the process of setting up their main tent.  They informed us that they were expecting something like 30 people, though they didn't seem to have half that number by the end of the weekend.  Our camp count was around 20 for the weekend.
I was not there for the initial discourse, but the end result was that we set our camp up a very short distance from where we have been and the two clans shared the hilltop for the weekend.  Again, no problems here, though it was a little disappointing to camp in a different spot and to have to re-direct people who usually come to visit us.
Naughtyham camp set up their tents on wednesday and apparently abandoned it until late thursday night.
Friday morning, our camp wakes up to make it to the opening gates for cannon.  Our typical morning routine began as normal: cowbells and mead horns blaring, huzzahs resounding, until everyone was awake and ready to roll.
Later that day, upon returning from faire, one of our newly-arrived campers told us of an exchange of words regarding our morning routine.  Apparently, some of the naughtyham group were upset about us blaring 'car horns' so early in the morning.
First of all, no one touched a car horn.  We may be loud, but we have a little more class than that.
That night, around 2 am, a (definite) car horn from their camp pierced through the night, lasting something like 20-30 seconds.  Joining into the revelry, we began to cheer and blast mead horns in response.  Later, it came to our attention that, perhaps, that car horn was passive-aggressive retaliation from that morning.
To my knowledge, there were no further interactions that weekend.

It is one thing to get to camp and have to alter plans somewhat due to someone else arriving earlier.  It's significantly more annoying when that group of people turns out to be another clan who misrepresents the number of people that they are expecting and then expects you to alter the way you enjoy your weekend because they suddenly decided to move their camp (along with generators and light pollution) halfway across the campgrounds, next to you. 

At this time, we have no intentions of moving, nor do we intend to skip the wakeup call period on the day(s) that we attend for cannon.

My question to you members of long-standing clans is this:  How do you claim and keep your camping spots?  How do you handle encroachments by people who complain about the things that you do and have done every year previous?   Am I more bothered than I should be?

We usually have a fantastic time mingling with our neighbors, sharing in the revelry.  This year, though, was lacking in that department. 

[KeeperoftheBar]

According to the rules, camping spots are "first come, first served".   So about all you can do is arrange to have site stakers get there early.

Friday morning, our camp wakes up to make it to the opening gates for cannon.  Our typical morning routine began as normal: cowbells and mead horns blaring, huzzahs resounding, until everyone was awake and ready to roll.

I didn't camp this weekend but I fear this act would really anger me if I had to listen to this.  I also like to get to the gate before cannon but I try NOT to disturm the people around me.  I just don't understand why any one would go out of their way to be an inconsiderate camping neighbor, justifying it by "being rowdy"

Guess I am just getting old and cranky...

[SirRichardBear]

Really not much that can be done about it since its first come first claim.   I missed camping with my clan this weekend because by the time I got there Friday it my normal spots were all filled.  I hear your morning wake up but since I was all ready awake it didn't bother me any.  Certainly nothing like the annoyance the ravers camped between us caused me.

[xed]

KeeperoftheBear:

See, that's just it. 
Nowhere did I say that we went out of our way to be inconsiderate.  What I said was that we conducted business as usual.  Going out of one's way would be spiteful.  We had no measure of spite whatsoever for naughtyham, though we will not be changing our longstanding routines because another clan has decided that they don't like their usual spot.

We are young.  We stay up late and we wake up early. 
We've never had issues with neighboring camps before, not once.

8/10 times, the mead horn blasts are met with the same from other camps.  I hardly see that as inconsiderate.  We don't belch and moan when other camps make noise; we know where we are and why we have come.

I also don't see any other clans fighting over camping space, so there MUST be some measure of understanding that exists between clans as to who typically camps where.  That's all I'm asking for.

If you want to camp next to us, that's fine.  Just know what you're getting yourself into.  And in this case, they were roundly warned.  I'm not saying we play loud music all night; we don't.  But if you're near a H.O.R.D. camp, you WILL hear the acoustic sounds of people enjoying themselves most thoroughly.
That's what I thought the campgrounds were all about.

SirRichardBear:
Are you saying you were camped near us?  We've talked on the forums but I'm not sure that we've actually met in person...We should remedy that next year! 
EDIT: After re-reading your post, I can't say that I'm familiar with any ravers being camped around us.  Were you near C-22?  I know I said behind D-0 in my OP, but that was wrong, it was behind D-22.  For some reason, my memory keeps recalling a map of the campgrounds that had negative integers at the top?

[xed]

As a further note, I think it's a bit screwy that the official TRF 'fliers' say that the campground opens at noon the day before.  We typically show up 16+ hours earlier than that and we're usually 30+ on the car tag.


Can anyone verify exactly what time everything opens?  I've heard as early as 10am the wednesday of closing weekend.  That's more than 24hours before what's posted.  I understand why this is done, but it is a bit unfair to those of us who drive long distances to participate.

[KeeperoftheBar]

KeeperoftheBear:

See, that's just it. 
Nowhere did I say that we went out of our way to be inconsiderate.  What I said was that we conducted business as usual.  Going out of one's way would be spiteful.  We had no measure of spite whatsoever for naughtyham, though we will not be changing our longstanding routines because another clan has decided that they don't like their usual spot.

We are young.  We stay up late and we wake up early. 
We've never had issues with neighboring camps before, not once.

8/10 times, the mead horn blasts are met with the same from other camps.  I hardly see that as inconsiderate.  We don't belch and moan when other camps make noise; we know where we are and why we have come.

I also don't see any other clans fighting over camping space, so there MUST be some measure of understanding that exists between clans as to who typically camps where.  That's all I'm asking for.

If you want to camp next to us, that's fine.  Just know what you're getting yourself into.  And in this case, they were roundly warned.  I'm not saying we play loud music all night; we don't.  But if you're near a H.O.R.D. camp, you WILL hear the acoustic sounds of people enjoying themselves most thoroughly.
That's what I thought the campgrounds were all about.

Well Sir, I do not mean to distress you but I am humbly submitting my opinion.  I do not have a problem with people enjoying themselves as long as they don't infringe on others.  So I ask you two questions:

Do you realize that some people in the campground do not follow your schedule and like to sleep in?
Do you understand that the noise you create extends past the borders of your camp?

If your answers are both yes, then I fear I must label you as inconsiderate.

However, I am sure you will not allow that to restrain you nor cause you any loss of sleep.
America...Where people can disagree and still bend an elbow together.

[xed]

I understand your points, and didn't intend to come off as confrontational.  My apologies.

The thing is, I think back to how many drunk people I've had walk through my tent, how many times I've been woken up overnight, how many times I've been woken up earlier than my preference, the retaliatory car horn at 230 am, etc etc etc...And I move on.

Why?

Because I am aware that I am at a semi-public camping space.  I am aware that not everyone's sleep patterns conform to mine.  I am aware that everyone's idea of a good time differs.  Once again:  I know where I am and why I/others am/are there.

I don't waltz myself into another camp and belch out demands that that camp conform to my own opinion of proper camping, particularly when said camp has explained to me beforehand exactly what to expect.  So why should I be subjected to the same?

We abide by a strict live and let live policy.  Sometimes we are inconvenienced by others.  Sometimes we inconvenience others.  It's all a part of the TRF camping experience.  As I've said before, it's not like we blare music all night or haul in generators that sound like cement mixers.  Hell, we even make it a point NOT to walk directly through other camps without an introduction because that would be rude (a luxury that we were not afforded this weekend, or most weekends actually).

Following your two-question formula, it could be concluded that even something so simple as breakfast could be considered 'inconsiderate'.
Does everyone love the smell of cooking bacon?
Does the smell of your cooking bacon extend beyond your camping area?
Am I going to walk into your campsite in the morning, because I smell you cooking bacon, and demand that you stop cooking bacon for breakfast because I am a vegan and hate the smell of bacon?  Or should I just deal with it for a short while and let you do your thing?
(Before you ask, I personally love bacon and have been awakened many times by that beautiful smell)

Lastly, I am also aware that there is a quiet camping area.  What I do not understand is the fact that there seem to be SO MANY people who want a quiet, peaceful camping experience, but when I walk through quiet camping on my way to meet new arrivals at the camping gate, the place is so empty.  Not a soul around to accept the very thing that they've been begging for.
For the record, we did go out of our way to be very quiet in the enormous empty field that makes up quiet camping.  I say we went out of our way because we were NOT conducting business as usual.

Isn't that exactly what so many people say that they want?  An enormous, empty, quiet space to lay one's head and not be disturbed?

Can a person who wants to party and then sleep in silence not walk from their quiet camping area to the party area and back once they've had their fill?

Either way, though, I had intended this thread to get some advice as to when/how to arrive in order to ensure that our usual camping spot is available.  Other clans seem to have no problems regarding this issue, so I was hoping someone would be able to share a secret or two.

EDIT:  The best part about the car horn retaliation is that no one in our camp was even close to asleep.  We returned the effort with raucous cheering.  It was great.

[eldatari]

What time does this morning routine happen?  If it starts too early I would be upset as well.

As far as when the campgrounds open, it usually opens earlier than they say so most of the big clans get at least one person there very early.

[xed]

Something like 7-8 am.  Early enough for our clan members to garb up and get to the gates for opening.  We're here to go to the faire, right?
Our first members arrived at 5pm Wednesday, if I'm not mistaken. 

Apparently, 19 hours early is still late!
Next year, hopefully, we'll be waiting in line.

[SirRichardBear]

I was camping in section 8 section 10 is just above the wash right along the back road correct?  I heard the horns but it wasn't very loud.  The ravers were along the back road in a big blue tent and were very loud.   I'll keep an eye out for you next season.

[BarbarianQueen]

I think I am somewhat in agreement with Keeperofthebar here, though maybe not quite as black and white.

And I would have to ask, Brother Xed - you came to ask for opinions of those that camp, but seem to have already made up your mind what's "right"

I would say, as others have said to me, the encompassing word in the campground should be "Respect".  While I LOVE traditions and shared experience, and love the idea of a "Out of time", magical campground, I would say that some common sense needs to be applied to each situation.

In this instance, IMHO, your tradition of blowing horns and shouting at 7am has a very high possibility of annoying the hell out of someone who greatly desires (or needs) to sleep in a bit .  You give by way of justification the comparison of someone cooking bacon, however there really is no comparison, if we're being honest. 

A more "apples to apples" comparison may be the clan that says, we have a 3am tradition of marching around our camp singing "The Drunken Sailor" at the top of our lungs while banging drums and cymbals. We're here to be pirates, right? A pirates life for us!! This is how we pirates turn in for the evening, our way of saying goodnight to each other.

Now, would you think folks might have a right to take umbrage at that clans tradition?  We in Clan Dragonborn go to bed around midnight, and try our best to get 8 hours of sleep, so I would be a bit annoyed with both of you! I do try to hold to the "live and let live" motto, though, and if truly bothered would move my camp rather than start an argument. 

However, if forced to do so, I wouldn't have a very high  opinion of the H.O.R.D.  Some people live their lives saying "to hell with everyone else - I'm going to do what I want to do!", but i wouldn't want to be around them very much.

[mpullen]

Restrained from replying to let the other folks put forth their responses.

Yes, the campgrounds are first-come, first-served. Just because a clan/group has been camping in one area for years doesn't mean they can expect to get the same spot if they are late arriving.

The official word is "The campgrounds gate will be open at noon Friday". Note that it doesn't state that "The campgrounds gate will be opening at noon Friday". Those strong on English may need to explain this difference to the folks who couldn't pass 10th grade English. The Faire has the flexibility to open earlier if the campgrounds are ready to receive (i.e., all the trash from the teenage campers who Mother's couldn't attend and clean up after them has been picked up). Also, the security force has to be in-place and ready to receive.

If you have a problem with adjacent campers (too close, Ravers, loud noise, uninvited trips into your camp, bad body odor, etc.) please contact the security force. They continuously patrol the campgrounds. Also, the contact number is posted all over the campgrounds. If all you want is a gentle reminder of the campgrounds rules to the problem children before sunset, please flag me down (I'm the old phart on the Mule). My main function is to point newcomers to the camping areas that meet their requirements and to remind folks about the posted rules.

As far as horn-blowing just before opening cannon, that may be a tradition. However, horn blowing at 2 AM may result in ejection from the campgrounds (as two individuals found out in 2012). Remember, you have about 8,000 neighbors who may not be as festive as you in the early hours.

Refresher - In the general campgrounds, all amplified music is limited to 85 Db (that's decibels) at 10 feet from the sound source (i.e., speaker) and not 10 feet from the music tent. In the General campgrounds, all amplified music must cease at midnight. Note that generators are exempt, along with drumming and other unamplified music.

Okay, what did I miss? See everyone next TRF season, or at Sherwood Forest Faire for the 2014 season.

[xed]

First off, I feel like we're coming off as a bunch of jerks here.  I feel the need to reiterate the fact that we have never once had any issue with neighboring camps until this weekend, and we've never done anything differently.

That being said:

And I would have to ask, Brother Xed - you came to ask for opinions of those that camp, but seem to have already made up your mind what's "right"

My true question was one of how current clans reserve their camping spots.  It would seem that the unanimous answer to that question is to get there even earlier.  I'm pretty sure someone in my clan can handle that, we've already got a few who are planning to show up absurdly early next year to prove a point.  I also plan my vacation time around this event, but being that the drive takes me almost a full day, I'm already at a disadvantage.
As for any other topics of discussion, I digress, though it looks like that's what the thread is about now, so I may as well just go with it.

As for your early morning routine of cow bells and mead horns, perhaps enough people will remember the name H.O.R.D clan, and the early risers camped nearby will not feel the need to restrain themselves when they feel like belting out the Barney song at 5:00 a.m. when they are having their first cup of coffee.  After all, live and let live. 

Indeed.  In fact, that would probably get us up a little earlier and make the trip to the gates a little easier.  We still have some trouble, even with the wakeup call!

The official word is "The campgrounds gate will be open at noon Friday". Note that it doesn't state that "The campgrounds gate will be opening at noon Friday".

If you have a problem with adjacent campers (too close, Ravers, loud noise, uninvited trips into your camp, bad body odor, etc.) please contact the security force. They continuously patrol the campgrounds. Also, the contact number is posted all over the campgrounds. If all you want is a gentle reminder of the campgrounds rules to the problem children before sunset, please flag me down (I'm the old phart on the Mule). My main function is to point newcomers to the camping areas that meet their requirements and to remind folks about the posted rules.

As far as horn-blowing just before opening cannon, that may be a tradition. However, horn blowing at 2 AM may result in ejection from the campgrounds (as two individuals found out in 2012). Remember, you have about 8,000 neighbors who may not be as festive as you in the early hours.

Refresher - In the general campgrounds, all amplified music is limited to 85 Db (that's decibels) at 10 feet from the sound source (i.e., speaker) and not 10 feet from the music tent. In the General campgrounds, all amplified music must cease at midnight. Note that generators are exempt, along with drumming and other unamplified music.

Hi, Mr. Mike, I didn't know that was you! 
First of all, thanks for everything that you do.  It's truly a joy to see your smiling face making the rounds early in the weekend.  I've heard lots about you from Clan Procrastination; next year I'll have to flag you down and introduce myself rather than just wave.
I definitely understand the difference in wording now that it's been pointed out, though I had no idea that the translation was meant to be taken so literally.
As for me calling the police, the problem would have to be pretty extreme for me to invite any of those guys near my camp.  Their sourpuss expressions as they patrol are enough for me.  Ever tried telling one of those guys hi?  They're nowhere near as cheerful as you are, I can tell you that much.
I've got no intention of horn blowing at 2 am, that would be ridiculous.  I'm not sure what picture you've got of us here, but a wakeup call between 7 and 8 am is a far cry from blowing a horn (or a drunken sailor march) at 2 (or 3), in my opinion.  None of that goes on in my camp, which is a large part of why I feel it's so absurd to be upset over a few horn blasts once the sun is already up.  I'm not sure if you were referring to us with the comment or not, but it was the other camp with the 2 am car horn.
Is there a particular time that the noise ban lifted in the morning? I've known about and respected since its induction the midnight cutoff, but I've never heard any word (or even thought about, honestly) regarding what time in the morning I would be considered 'breaking the rules' by making noise.

[BarbarianQueen]

Ah, youth!  "But this is what WE like to do. So, it MUST be ok! The rest of you must be wrong".
So, YOU GUYS like to get up early in order to be at the gate open. Awesome! Love the enthusiasm and unity. SOMEONE needs to be there at opening Canon, right?
Others, however, May have other traditions, like waxing eloquent with their friends late into the night, sharing stories and catching up around the fire. Their tradition then may also include sleeping in a bit and then sharing coffee together before heading to faire.

BOTH traditions have merit and validity. But, one, with the blowing of horns and shouting, seems to be more forcefully infringing on the other's rights. Again, it seems o come down to respect.

Maybe instead of blowing horns to wake up your clan, you could just throw buckets of ice water on the slow ones. That would be much quieter...except for the shocked screaming, I guess.

[DonaCatalina]

Maybe instead of blowing horns to wake up your clan, you could just throw buckets of ice water on the slow ones. That would be much quieter...except for the shocked screaming, I guess.

Snort. I love that comment.
We no longer camp. We have our sleeping schedule so that we get to the gate at 7:30ish and enjoy a bottle of wine and breakfast while we watch everyone else arrive. We have considered RV camping for some point in the future but the ravers, drummers et al are just too unpredictable for us. I do have a tendency towards violence when shocked out of sleep. So its safer for all around if I don't camp.