Do you see what I see?

[princess farcical]

Forgive me, but I rather think that calling someone a "Garb Nazi" behind their back is absolutely as hurtful and humiliating.


[/quote]

Please note that I also mentioned in my post that I dislike the term just as much as you to.  I wasn't defining the word.  I was merely pointing out what *I* think of when I hear *OTHERS* use the term.
[/quote]

Ah.  Yeah.  Sorry 'bout that.   

[verymerryseamstress]

Miranda,

You're absolutely entitled to your opinion and there's no way I would ever tell you you're wrong in thinking that they are lacing rings.  They might be!  But they also might be grommets.  They might be rivets (as someone else posted) and they might be rings with hooks in them (as someone else posted)  None of us know with absolute certainty that their answer is the only right answer.  THAT was my point.

You wrote: "I understood exactly what you were saying with:
"I wasn't there, (in fact, none of us were there) so it's not often that people can truly proclaim something to be 100% absolutely period INcorrect.  The best we can offer are educated theories, because even the few extant garments we have to use as guides are not inclusive of every single possibility.  Just because something doesn't appear often in portraiture, or occur in extant garments, doesn't mean that it's not possible."

When researching a theory, I hold a standard.  When using secondary and tertiary resources, find multiple examples.
Also take what you see in Allegory pictures with a grain of salt.  Sometimes they are great resources (the numerous Judith pictures for example) but other times its just the artist's idea of what Jesus wore...etc."

That's all fine and well, and I'm certainly in agreement with your new comment, but that's not what you wrote in your original post, nor is it what I was replying to.  In your original post you listed a dozen things that are very obviously not going to be considered historically accurate.  And that's why I felt the need to point out that my comment was *not* referring to obvious modern inventions.


You wrote:

I still think they are lacing rings :-).

And as I mentioned previously, you're just as entitled to your theory as I am my own, and I'll never tell you they are ABSOLUTELY NOT lacing rings.  :-)

The whole point of this post was to emphasize that we're all going to see different things.  Nobody has to be right.  Nobody has to be wrong.  I was hoping to hear a multitude of perspectives.  I find them all very interesting.

[Katie Bookwench]

Yes it is kind of a big deal Margaret.  Because its a two way street. 
It is hurtful to have your garb snarked, I know, I've had it done to me. 
I've heard the terms "Garb Nazi", "Authenticity Nazi", and similar terms thrown around in cavalier manner.  And as I said before, I daresay the majority of the people that are perceived as snarky are just well meaning and misunderstood people and I imagine they are just as hurt and crushed.

Ok-- we can agree that the label is a big deal to some, and rather cavalier to others. With my personal apologies to you, I'll admit I happen to be on the cavailier side... it's just a couple of words to me, ones that are in use in my personal vocabulary because that's always what I've heard them called, and what I have called them in the past-- and I don't personally know anyone who fits the description. I've just heard of 'them'-- in fact, it's kind of that ubiquitous 'THEM' or 'THEY' most people speak of. Perhaps the stuff of urban legend.

and to specificially call 'THEM' out, I would describe them as the MINORITY of the people you have described. Yes, the majority of these authenticity mavens ARE misunderstood, well meaning, though perhaps less skilled at the arts of personal communication... but there are those who:

A) Feel that they are the undisputed authority on the minutia of authenic garb--and are overly proud of their self-imposed authority.
B) Feel that someone else's taste is inferior to their own, or
C) Feel that someone is ignorant (willfully or not) of the proper construction and/or style are therefore just plain STUPID.
D) Feel that they are well within their rights--as the 'offended party' to disrespectfully (with the assumption that the other person is just too STUPID) take them to task about their attire with absolutely NO tact or delicacy whatsoever.

All of this shows a wanton disrespect for another person -- one MAY argue that this sort of disrespect is the first step in the downward spiral that makes one sort of person want to cleanse the earth of another sort of person.

I think that's stretching a bit...but if you cut it on the bias....well, there you go. 

And, just as a contrast to this discussion on nomenclature.... the parking people here at MiRF are widely known to cast/crew and many patrons as: Parking Nazis. Go figure...   

[Lady Caroline]

Thanks for the parking warning!  I'll be sure to park in a designated spot only.  lol

Do they have special spots further away, reserved for us grommet users?

[Margaret]

Thanks for the parking warning!  I'll be sure to park in a designated spot only.  lol

Do they have special spots further away, reserved for us grommet users?

*snerf*  I am sure we can arrange a special 'grommet section'!!

Hope it's near the front because I'd be parking there too.   

VMS - thank you so much for posting that picture and your observations.  It's thru discussion and debate of a theory that we can come to better conclusions about how things were worn and what was worn.

[isabelladangelo]

Miranda, I think I <3 you!   

Let's bring this back down and think logically.  Have any grommets been found in the archeological record?  No.  Having lacing rings been found?  Yes.  Have hooks & eyes been found? Yes. 

Is that to say that there is absolutely no way it can possibly be grommets, well no.  But I also can't say that there weren't people wearing denim either.     (hey, they had indigo, they had cotton in the southern part of Europe, therefore, they had jeans!)   Since it is not present in the archeological record, not obviously present in the pictorial evidence, and no written sources state that they were using anything that is described like grommets, then, it has to be assumed that they didn't have them.  Do new things get discovered every day?  Of course!  But, for now, I think it's safe to say not to use big ole grommets (that can tear up the cloth) and just sew 'em up instead or use lacing rings.

As for the "If you want to be h/a, that's fine, if you don't that's fine" attitude...well, not entirely true.  I do appreciate good fantastical clothing.  I have a couple of fairy gowns of my own that I wear to the fantasy festivals.  However, nothing is more grating on the eye than someone wearing something that is indecent (seen that.  three pieces of rabbit sized leather do not cover anyone over 200 pounds...ever) or obviously trying to be obnoxious with the neon green and blinding yellow and the smug look like "I dare you to say something to me"  (I've certainly see that...and seen what happens when the same smug individual states their "I can do whatever I want" position to an Elizabethan gentleman.)

Basically, it boils down to one very simple point, be polite.   If you want to wear your fairy wings to a historical festival, just realize that, unless it's the day of wrong, you will be in the minority and people will look at you funny.  People will ALWAYS look at the person who is "different" funny.  That's the way of the world.   Some people will love your "different" look, some people won't.  That's the way of the world.  If you want to fit in better with the theme, then fit in better with the theme and wear a simple skirt with a well fitted bodice or a simple pair of pants and a well fitted jerkin if you are a guy.   Don't go to the festival with the idea of "I'm going to show them I can do whatever I please!"  It's rude and obnoxious.   Instead think "What would I feel most comfortable in and what looks good on me".  If you ask yourself that, not only will you feel better about yourself, you will also get a lot more complements....even if it's not H/A.

[Capt Gabriela Fullpepper]

OK you can toss marshmellows at me with a trebuche after this post and I am not trying to offend anyone with it. I can see both views. When some one uses the term "navi: I do not th8nk they are trying to interject the meaning of someone who followed Hitler or followed his views. Websters says this about the word "navi"

1: a member of a German fascist party controlling Germany from 1933 to 1945 under Adolf Hitler
2: often not capitalized a: one who espouses the beliefs and policies of the German Nazis : fascist b: one who is likened to a German Nazi: a harshly domineering, dictatorial, or intolerant person

I the case of "garb navi" I believe it is in reference to 2; b. a harshly domineering, dictatorial, or intolerant person.

Would garb dictator be any offensive? When I hear dictator I think of Hitler, Stalin, Musalini, Napoleon, Idi Amin, and many others.

The person that used that term did not mean to offened anyone on this site, once again neither do I. There are words out there and terms many of us find offensive and we can in no way know what offends anyone. In those case you cannot take it in the literal meaning and let it roll off your back.

An example of this would be Being Native American I do not like the term Indian. Indians come from India, but lets face it, the term Indian is a common word that we as Americans use everyday to refer to those who who where here long before any European.

So my two cents, Nice catch Heather HUZZAH to you! Who know's what they really are. I'm in the belief they could be grommets, they could be hooks, either way you look at it, it's a great find. We cannot say they are not gromments and never had grommets. People never thought that ancient Americans knew of airplanes, but they have found sculptures that sure as heck look like modern airplanes in a time when human kind was just starting to become civilized long before flight was though possible by man. New discoveries are made all the time of things we though didn't or could not have existed, but ancient history proves us wrong.

I for one would love to be H/A but that is 100% impossible unless you can take the way back machine to 1589 and get 3000 dresses made for you. I dress to look my best and TRY to be as H/A when I can. But once again there is no way ANY ONE in this time frame can be.

Steps off soap box. OK fire the marshmellow trebuche's at me now Opens mouth to catch as many as I can

[Katie Bookwench]

Thanks for the parking warning!  I'll be sure to park in a designated spot only.  lol

Do they have special spots further away, reserved for us grommet users?

Yes, they do. You have to park out by the swamp.


um... wait... maybe I should be more specific....  



(for those of you who don't know, most of the MIRF site was built on a swamp. it's really hard to miss-- it borders to the South, SW, West and a little NW too)

[verymerryseamstress]

"Is that to say that there is absolutely no way it can possibly be grommets, well no.  "

And therein lies the *entire* point of my post. 

Frankly I don't care if people want to lace their bodices through duct tape and safety pins.  I know what *I* prefer, and just because something chooses something different from what *I* choose is no reason for ME to be offended. 

"If you want to wear your fairy wings to a historical festival, just realize that, unless it's the day of wrong, you will be in the minority and people will look at you funny.  People will ALWAYS look at the person who is "different" funny.  That's the way of the world. "

Not all people fit into your defined category.  I don't look at ANY people 'funny.'  I think it's rude to look at people 'funny.'  And I don't feel it's "the way of the world," because I know quite a few other people who don't spend their time looking at people who are "different."  When someone is different from me, I don't ever find it offensive.  I don't find it annoying.  I embrace diversity, creativity and differences.  Just because it doesn't match MY personal choice doesn't make it wrong, and certainly doesn't make it acceptable to look at someone 'funny.'

Every person has their own preference and who am I to say they are right or wrong.  All I say is "More power to you for making the effort!" 

[Margaret]

We all have our preferences of what we want to wear.  I am sure everyone here has made the statement at one time or another of "I would not be caught dead in that!!" yet there is someone who would wear it. 

We all have preferences and opinions of what we like to see and create in our garb.  And, I am also sure we have all saw someone in garb and thought "They could have done so much better if they just...."  But to walk by and giggle behind your hand at a person or approach and give an unsolicited opinion is just rude. 

We all started our garb making somewhere and we were not perfect.  Some people wanted to be more historically correct and that is all well and good for them.  Some people did not care one whit for HA just as long as they looked good and they were having fun.  All well and good too. 

At the end of the day, all we are doing is playing dress up and make believe.  No one can say, with some exceptions, how everything was made, done or used.  It's fun to discuss and debate as it increases our body of knowledge.  However,  keep your opinions to yourself unless asked, and then teach and educate.

[Lady Renee Buchanan]

One of the nicest compliments I've ever received at faire:

A few years ago, Bristol had a costume contest with categories for peasants, middle class, nobles, and sailors/pirates.  The judges were the seamstresses for the royal court and the rest of the cast.  The knowledge and talent of those 3 women was incredible, if you've ever seen the Bristol cast.  Now, none of my garb can be called anything NEAR historically accurate.

One of the judges had on a beautiful partlet, so before the contest, I went up to ask her where she had gotten it.  Before I could say anything, she asked me, "Oh, are you here to sign up for the contest?"  I looked at her in amazement and said, "No, my garb isn't in the category to be in a costume contest, it isn't HA in the least, they probably didn't wear anything like this at all."

Her reply:  "Darling, your garb suits you, it is well made, and you look beautiful in it.  You certainly could be in any contest because the way you carry yourself when you wear it."

THAT made my day!  So grommets, no grommets, hooks, whatever, I guess I don't care.  I'm a happy camper wearing whatever I choose!  And if somebody else doesn't like it, and if anyone ever comes up to tell me what is wrong (and nobody has in 12 continuous years of faire, and the early days, the garb was truly awful), I guess I'd just stick my tongue out at them. 

[verymerryseamstress]

Lady Renee, you're *ALWAYS* gorgeous.  I'm not surprised you were paid such a wonderful compliment.   

[Lady Renee Buchanan]

Ah, shucks, Heather, you're so sweet.

But honestly, we've been going to faire since the early 1980's, on and off.  Started going 12 years ago regularly, wearing garb, driving long distances, etc. like the rest of all us totally hooked people here.  No one has ever, ever approached us being snarky, nor have we ever caught anybody making fun of our garb behind our back.  So whoever these garb "negativisists"  (is that PC enough not to hurt anyone's feelings) are, and wherever they are, they must be in a very small minority.  Probably a small enough group to just ignore them.

I know that I look at everyone's garb, one glance while passing.  No analyzing, no comparisons.  No matter whether it's befitting of the Queen or it's gold lame while wearing sneakers, I think, "Huzzah, they came dressed up, good for them."

I serve on the altar at church.  It can be very intimidating sitting up there in front of the whole congregation, trying to help the priest during the gospel, communion, processing, etc.  You're always afraid you're going to mess up, and the whole world will see.  But guess what??  No one is even paying attention to you.  They're not there to look at you and judge you. They're there to go to church.

I think it's the same thing as when we go to faire.  The rest of the people aren't there to look at me though they may glance while walking by me.  They're there to have fun.  It's not about me.  And I bet 99.99% of the people aren't even paying attention to you, certainly not whether you have a grommet or hook or whatever.

Go and have fun, everybody!     Peace, love, Woodstock.

[Lady L]

When someone is different from me, I don't ever find it offensive.  I don't find it annoying.  I embrace diversity, creativity and differences.  Just because it doesn't match MY personal choice doesn't make it wrong, and certainly doesn't make it acceptable to look at someone 'funny.'

Every person has their own preference and who am I to say they are right or wrong.  All I say is "More power to you for making the effort!" 

I agree with you wholeheartedly on that point. I would even extend that from garb to any other way someone is "different" than me. I find it very interesting to learn about other cultures, societies and languages. If I had not been accepted into MNRF, I doubt I would have begun to research about that historical time frame, which lead me to research many other cultures and languages, as well.

I LOVE creativity! As an artist, I have tried to teach my students that there is no right or wrong way in art, it's whatever you, the artist, want it to be. I have had people tell me the way I painted a unicorn was "wrong". How did they know it was wrong? Have they seen one in person?

The light of truth shines best through an open mind. 

[Lady L]

At the end of the day, all we are doing is playing dress up and make believe.  No one can say, with some exceptions, how everything was made, done or used.  It's fun to discuss and debate as it increases our body of knowledge.  However,  keep your opinions to yourself unless asked, and then teach and educate.

I could not have said it better myself. We were discussing what some people think is historically accurate or not and why did it matter, when my then 5 year old grandaughter said "It's just pretend". 

And I just recently said people should keep their negative comments and hands to themselves, after an incident at church. So, to that comment above, I say, Huzzah.