Florentine overgown skirt musings

[gem]

So I'm taking a break from the brain-taxing Promenade gown to finish up the Florentine ensemble I started last summer.  I'm trying to decide how I want the skirts on the overgown, and thought while I was musing, I might as well muse out loud and let y'all have some fun musing, too.

My gamurra (the undergown) is very un-historically open down the front of the skirts, so originally I was planning to have the overgown closed down the front/open down the sides... but now I can't decide.  I could probably pin the gamurra skirts closed so my chemise doesn't show when I wear the whole ensemble.

I'm also not sure how much fullness I want in the skirts.  I've seen the fronts of overgowns that are gently pleated, heavily pleated, and absolutely flat.

So, do I want...
1.) Open down the front, no pleats, like Jen Thompson's?

2.) Open down the front, lightly pleated, like this one I found (sorry; don't know where that picture comes from).

3.) Open at the sides, no pleats, like Lynn McMasters's?

4.) Closed in front, heavily pleated, like Caterucia at the Realm of Venus?

At this point, I'm not terribly concerned with being H/A--more "historically inspired."  I'll also mention that I've been staring at the pictures of Caterucia's and Lynn McMasters's gowns for two years now, trying to make up my mind.  It's time to just choose something, dangit!  My undergown is chocolate brown linen, and the overgown will be a butter yellow damask, if that helps.  Also, this entire project was originally inspired by this manuscript picture. I have a blue-purple gown almost identical to that, and wanted to do a recreation.  However, I lost 50 lbs and the blue gown doesn't fit anymore!  Hence the brown undergown.

Ok, talk amongst yourselves!

[sealion]

I like them all and have them saved on my computer, too! LOL
I'm voting for #3 because a) I think closed front will work better with your open front gamurra, b) unpleated will show off the pattern of the fabric better and, c) unpleated will require less yardage.

[Trillium]

I like the look of #3.

[silverstah]

I rather like option #4 myself.

[Joyce "Delfinia DuSwallow" Howard]

I also vote for #3,I really like that look.

[Cilean]

I love the side opening because it helps with heat. I think Jen's or Lynn's would look smashing.

Cilean

[gypsylakat]

I like number 3..

[guinea]

My vote is #4

[theatrekat]

my vote is for #3

[Randal]

I guess I'm the odd man out; I like #1.

Randal

[Artemisia]

Your talking about the giornea, right? Then #3, because I'm partial to that style.

Give me a couple days - I took an AWESOME giornea construction class at Pennsic. I can take pictures of the handout for you.

The closed, pleated version is a cioppa. The giornea and cioppa were used at the same time. Ooo! I thinks I may have notes on that one too...

::rummages through Pennsic stuff::

[gem]

Thanks, everyone! 

I'm wondering, though, if we're all loving #3 because it's just so darn glorious with the colors and the long train and that unbelievable beading.  I'm not so sure that the silhouette is that flattering, plus my undergown doesn't flow like that one (mine's linen, not velvet, and it has no train).  Believe me, I've been swayed by that picture for years, and it's hard to look beyond the beautiful construction and embellishment and evaluate the *shape.*  Hence my indecision!  (Cindy, my damask has only a small diamond/harlequin pattern, not the lovely big swirls and arabesques).

Oh--here's a picture:


Artemisia, YES, thank you so much!  There is so little information online about chioppas that I can't even find a definition of what one *was.*  I would love any information you're willing to share!

Hmm... now, I'm wondering... I love the look of the big pleats in the back of Jen's overgown... there's really no reason I couldn't do the Lynn McMaster's version with a *pleated* back, is there?  Oooh....

[gem]

Ok, I have consulted with Milord, and he is in agreement with all of you (most of you, sorry, Laura and Randall).  He prefers the look of closed down the front, open up the sides (he said, "You look good in your dress that opens up the sides..." I have no idea what dress he's talking about; perhaps this is a fantasy he had? LOL).  So, anyway, I now have to figure out how one gets in and out of such a thing, as well as how much fabric I need in the skirt.  It looks like I bought something like 85 yards of fabric, so I think I'll have plenty....

(I must admit, however, that Milord's opinion overall on this matter is a bit suspect; he's not a fan of damask, a fact that makes me gasp in horror.)

[Anna Iram]

OMGosh Gem. I remeber when you posted that picture and began the thought of hat to make. Glad to see it's in the plans. Gives me hope for that eight yards of terracotta that just can't decide what it wants to be.

A bit too late maybe, but I like # 3 as well. Would it be laced at the sides?

[gem]

Anna, great memory--wow!! 

I've been looking at closeups of the bodice, and it looks like the McMasters one is just a tabard style--the belt holds everything together.  Since I am not a dressform, I think I'll put a couple of eyelets in the sides.  That should make it so I can drop it over my head, but it won't flop around on me.

[Lady Renee Buchanan]

Gem, I know you've already made your decision, but I just saw this thread, and wanted to mention why I chose #3.

When I looked at the 4 pictures, my first thought upon seeing #3 was that it is different because it has side openings and you won't look like everybody else.  To me, that made it outstanding -- to not look like everybody else. 

Most peoples' garb is pretty much the same, mine included, so to see something so different makes it really stand out and very memorable.

[Artemisia]

Open sides? Giornea wins! 

Okay, I only have my own scribble notes on one construction technique. It's simple. Mind you, there are many other ways to construct a giornea. This is just one.

Notice in some paintings how the shoulder pattern of the fabric has no seam. The pattern continues unbroken. This can be interpreted as the fabric being all one piece, at least on the sides. This pattern will give you a full, billowing giornea.

Take around 8 yards of fabric of 60 wide fabric. You need the width so the giornea will drape correctly, you can probably get away with 45/55 width. Rip or cut across the middle so you have two four yards pieces. The middle seam will go up the back, open in the center as the neckhole and down the front. Here's a really rough sketch of what I mean: http://i35.tinypic.com/28ktrtt.jpg

Now comes the draping. Place the giornea on your dress dummy or have a helper do the work while you wear it. Start gently pulling and draping the fabric. After the giornea is draped and falls in way you feel looks good, begin to cut out the sides by starting at the shoulder point and straight down the front. Notice any naturally falling folds and cut behind them not through them. Then do the same from the shoulder point down the back. Do the same with the other side. Now you can cut the hemline and include a train if you desire one.

You now have your custom giornea pattern. The giornea can be finished with a bag lining or any lining that you wish. Just make sure the lining isn't stiff because you want this garmet to flow and move with every step you take.

Here are handouts for the cioppa I got from a Pennsic class. I used a high resolution so can download the images if you can't see them clearly. Also included is a pattern for a partlet and a handout for gamurre: http://good-times.webshots.com/album/565535375GMecWB

Good Luck

[Silverbee]

I'm late, I'm late!  But I still have to vote for #3.  It's gorgeous and like Lady Renee said - it's different.

[Marietta Graziella]

Gem, that #3 was the pattern that Lady K of O posted and sent to me so I could look at it more closely.  That was the one that inspired my Florentine (which ended up looking nothing like it, but there you go). 

I love the smooth front, the pattern, the no added bulk to the stomach area!