Renaissance Politics

[Capt Gabriela Fullpepper]

OK Political Season is here, but we are not going to talk Modern politics, we are going to discuss Tudor politics of the Renaissance.

So to start this off lets discuss beliefs on Anne Boleyn, King Henry VIII most famous wife in most accounts. I have read many books about Anne and it is my belief that Anne was an overly ambitious woman wronged by King Henry and the people of England.

Anne had been a part of King Henri the XII's court because of his wife Mary Tudor, Henry Tudor's youngest sister who was married to the French king. It is believed that Anne learned many of her secrets of sexual play here in this court, and who can blame her being under the French and their ways.

Anne's sister Mary was already believed to being having a tiff with King Henry that may have produced a child, but Henry was a typical powerful man of his time and got what he wanted. Since Mary was now pregnant he needed someone to satisfy him and being loyal to ones spouse was never something men of noble birth ever did.

When Anne came back to England she fell in love with a young noble named Henry Percy. It is my belief that Anne and Henry Percy loved each other. To Henry Percy it was a step down to marry Anne as some report. And he and Anne went against family and noble rules to try and marry each other.

Sometime before this happened, Anne Boleyn caught the eye of King Henry and Henry being... well Henry wanted Anne Boleyn for his own. He forbid the marriage of Anne and Henry Percy through Cardinal Wolsey so he could have his way with Anne Boleyn.
It is my belief that Anne did in no way want to be with King Henry VIII, but was pushed onto him by a family looking to climb the royal and political ladder of Renaissance England. Like any young woman of the time, Anne had no choice and she decided to get even with King Henry and Cardinal Wolsey. She made the best of a situation and figured that if she had to be wronged for her family she would make everyone pay including Queen Katherine, King Henry's current wife.

While many called Anne a whore, it is well documented that she never had sex with Henry Tudor until after she knew she could get the crown for her own. It was only when she knew she could be Queen did she have sex with him and produced the greatest queen of England history if not greatest monarch. Not to mention Anne was being pushed by her family and being a good daughter she did as she was ordered, but she would make them pay once she got where they wanted her to be.

Anne being a very vindictive personality knew that Wolsey had ruined her 1st love interest with Henry Percy was going to make him pay. And pay he did with his life. While never executed, he was on his way to the tower when he died of sickness.

In time I think Anne grew to love Henry Tudor, but she was a woman ahead of her times i.e. very ambitious once pushed to it. Once she could not produce in heir, Henry grew tired of her and while pregnant Henry being Henry decided to have his way with court woman.  Since he could not have a 2nd divorce and look good he had Anne's head taken instead on trumped up charges.

It is my belief that Anne was totally innocent of all charges against her. She was to smart do do the things said about her by having affairs with Henry Percy and others, and of being a witch which we all know do not existed in the form that the Renaissance believed them to exist in (Charms, potions, summoning)

Now as I say many called Anne a whore, but it is widely believed that Jane Seymour was having sexual tiffs with King Henry while he was married to Anne. But yet Jane is far more loved by the English people during this time. Thus would Jane then not be the real whore.

So I pose this question, Do you believe Anne was innocent of her charges, and do you think that she was a woman ahead of her times, mean very ambitious, In today's world would she be the head of a cooperation or politically minded. Or  could she have ended up a Prime Minister under the situations that dictated her climb to queen hood.

Personally I admire Anne Boleyn and believe her to be innocent of all charges. She was afraid of Henry, but was not going to stand around while he had tiffs. It is after all wrong in most all Christian relegions to have extra marital affairs.

[Julianne]

Of course Anne was innocent of the charges she was ultimately convicted of.
It is afterall good to be King.  King Henry VIII used his power and priveledge to get "rid" of all of his wives save his last.

Anne's crime was her inability to produce a male heir.  Which, as far as I know, was never made a "legal" crime in any society...just a moral and ethical one.

[PurpleDragon]

I'm not sure if I would even call that a moral or ethical crime. I would call it ignorance on the part of the father as there is no way of knowing exactly what sex the child is going to be for at least the first 2 trimesters of the pregnancy, and even then mistakes can be made.

[Welsh Wench]

Anne got a raw deal. Shortly before her execution on charges of adultery, her marriage to the King was dissolved and declared invalid.
That being the case, the adultery charge should have flown out the door.
No marriage.
No adultery.


From the Internet--
ANNE BOLEYN'S SPEECH AT HER EXECUTION
MAY 19, 1536, 8 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING


Good Christian people, I am come hither to die, for according to the law, and by the law I am judged to die, and therefore I will speak nothing against it. I am come hither to accuse no man, nor to speak anything of that, whereof I am accused and condemned to die, but I pray God save the king and send him long to reign over you, for a gentler nor a more merciful prince was there never: and to me he was ever a good, a gentle and sovereign lord. And if any person will meddle of my cause, I require them to judge the best. And thus I take my leave of the world and of you all, and I heartily desire you all to pray for me. O Lord have mercy on me, to God I commend my soul.

After being blindfolded and kneeling at the block, she repeated several times: To Jesus Christ I commend my soul; Lord Jesu receive my soul.

[Sir Ironhead]

Of course Anne was innocent of the charges she was ultimately convicted of.
It is afterall good to be King.  King Henry VIII used his power and priveledge to get "rid" of all of his wives save his last.

Anne's crime was her inability to produce a male heir.  Which, as far as I know, was never made a "legal" crime in any society...just a moral and ethical one.

"...just a moral and ethical one."  Not sure it's even that.  I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure they haven't perfected a way to ensure which sex the baby will be now.  I DO know they weren't able to do that back then.

[Lady Nicolette]

What is truly ironic is that we now know that the sex of a child is determined by the male.  So it was all Henry's fault in the first place.

I've always felt kind of sorry for Anne Boleyn as well.

[nliedel]

Most historians agree that Anne was innocent of all charges. She probably did have sex before their marriage, to Percy at least, but that was not uncommon at the time, if someone thought they were to marry.

[Capt Gabriela Fullpepper]

Of course Anne was innocent of the charges she was ultimately convicted of.
It is afterall good to be King.  King Henry VIII used his power and priveledge to get "rid" of all of his wives save his last.

Anne's crime was her inability to produce a male heir.  Which, as far as I know, was never made a "legal" crime in any society...just a moral and ethical one.

"...just a moral and ethical one."  Not sure it's even that.  I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure they haven't perfected a way to ensure which sex the baby will be now.  I DO know they weren't able to do that back then.

Actually there is a almost 100% way to tell and that is with the amniosyntesis. It is not usually done on women unless they are 35 years of age or older. It's usual use is to test for down syndrome in a child but it pulls a sample of the genetics around the baby and the sex and any other issue can be found. It is a rather painful process to do on a woman and can be risky on the unborn child. I have had personal experiences with this test and it is scary and not fun for anyone, but sometimes must be done. But no not back then, which is funny as they had seer's which could really be seen as witches telling the gender of the baby.

Now back to the topic.

I often think if science knew even 10% of what we know today back then if Henry would have so cruel to Anne. If they only knew it was all up to the male to decide the gender.

As far as the adultry I can fully understand how this could be considered a traitorous act. if a woman were to have sex with a man whom she was not married to and produce a child, you would then have an ursurper to the throne and not of true royal blood. But then again what makes a royal bllod so much better than anyone else? Inbreading?

[Welsh Wench]

An excellent source on the Tudors--

http://www.the-tudors.org.uk/index.htm

You have to admire Anne. She held out and got what she wanted all the while bringing the religious faction to its knees.

[Welsh Wench]

But Elizabeth is yours. Watch her as she grows; she's yours. She's a Tudor! Get yourself a son off of that sweet, pale girl if you can - and hope that he will live! But Elizabeth shall reign after you! Yes, Elizabeth - child of Anne the Whore and Henry the Blood-Stained Lecher - shall be Queen! And remember this: Elizabeth shall be a greater queen than any king of yours! She shall rule a greater England than you could ever have built! Yes - MY Elizabeth SHALL BE QUEEN! And my blood will have been well spent!

OK so it's from Anne of a Thousand Days.
But I like to think that she really told Henry this.

[Lady Nicolette]

edited to:  Referring to Lady DeLaney's post above:

This is actually why, in the Jewish faith (at least in Orthodox opinion), to be truly Jewish, you must have a Jewish mother, since paternity wasn't as provable (back in the day).  

Indeed, when too much inbreeding happens, all kinds of odd things come up in the mix.  Like hemophelia, for one.  So much of what happened to Tsar Nicholas and Alexandra of Russia was because of their hemopheliac son and their dependence on Rasputin to ease him of his suffering.

Back to Anne, I wonder if they'd been able to do in vitro then if Henry would have stayed married to her, especially if they could have ensured the sex of the child, or if he would have still followed that wandering eye of his to greener pastures anyway.

And referring to Welsh Wench's posts:  

Talk about religion and politics being touchy subjects!  Especially those subjects who were touched by flames and the sword.  Yikes!

I would bet that she said something the like.  Plus if she did, how incredibly true it was!

[Capt Gabriela Fullpepper]

Some of Annes probles with losing the children she did was undo stress caused by Henry. Once again if the Renaissance knew just 10% of what we know today.

Stress hurts boththe mother and child. Sticking them a blackened room with stale air does not help. HAd they let a woman have some fresh air and some excersive and a proper not so rich diet, then Anne may have not lost the one son she did carry. But Henry brought on so much stress to her, it caused them both harm.

And it is great that Elizebeth did turn out to be the greatest monarche ever in most oppinions and she came from a so called whore and witch.

[jmkhalfmoon]

Ah, the use of women as political pawns.   

You brought up the concept of maternal health.  I've always wondered if these royal women nursed their infants or if they were immediately ferried off to wet nurses, thus missing the all important first days of immune boosting colostrum.

Lady Jyne

[Julianne]

mmmmmm good people!!!!...the "moral and ethical" statement was indeed meant for the era that we were discussing! 

Even then it wasn't a legal crime for a woman not to be able to produce a male heir....it was simply expected...and that was what I was inferring to when I said that Anne had commited a moral and ethical crime.

I really believe that Henry VIII had become so delusional with his obsession of providing England with a legitimate male heir that he used all within his power to get rid of the women that could not give him that.  Only Jane Seymour gave him a son and she died for it.  Ultimately Henry's son ruled for only a blink in time. 
Karma has a quirky way of delivering justice....only his daughters ruled England and both delivered substantial moments in the annals of history.


Addendum:  'Bastard" royals have always been a fact.  In the past the male offspring of these ilicit unions were given the surname of Fitzroy.  The girls unfortunately rarely received any recognition at all until the 20th century.  Camilla, the wife of heir apparent Prince Charles is the great-grandaughter of one of King Edward's mistresses.  Thus Camilla and Charles are related.

[Welsh Wench]

Charles II, of the House of Stuart, acknowledged at least twelve illegitimate children by seven mistresses. Five of them were from Barbara Palmer, Countess of Castlemaine.
Charles II's kingship passed to his brother James and then to James' daughters Mary and Anne respectively, then on to the house of Hanover.

It makes one wonder what turn history would have taken if the children born on the wrong side of the blanket could inherit the kingship.