Problems with the community fire

[Macintyre]

i like the revised version, except for the having a ticket part, not everyone that goes has a way to buy tickets in advance.  you can usually tell the difference between a rennie and dane pulling up to thecamp gates.  a rennie will usually have some garb or sword or something along those lines visible in the car.  unless the they could open the ticket boothes on friday so that people can get thier tickets then.

[rumy]

I went to the fire for some belly dancing sat nite and was very impressed that it didn't degrade into some of the madnesses i saw last yr.  I actually had room to dance, and others kept the crowds back for more room.  I had a great time and was able to dance uninterupted for 30 min.  So whoever was out there responsible for that, THANKS!!!  now, please keep it up   it's only fun to dance out there when u aren't afraid that every other step might be the one that catches ur skirt or scarves on fire    liz and i will be out there dancing at nite, so come say hi to us.

[Rani Zemirah]

I have taken the invitation to make constructive changes to this preliminary document to heart, and have changed some of the wording, but not the overall message. I hope I have not offended anyone in so doing. My changes are underlined, with explanations in italics. I tried leaving in the original wording using strike through, but it became too confusing for me so I have used the quote feature to include the original passages for the sake of comparison. Just my own suggestions, worth tuppence (or less). 

P.S. I started this early this morning, but was unable to return to it until this afternoon, so I have no idea what has been discussed in the meantime.

Okay, here's a more revised version of the proposed petition. Feel free to criticize (constructively, of course) and make suggestions on what to add, take away, or change:

To the Texas Renaissance Festival Management,


The Texas Renaissance Festival, while a fantastic and beautiful place to visit, has a problem that needs to be addressed.

We, the Undersigned, do hereby set forth this petition for increased security and the removal of certain undesirable elements from the campgrounds. The campgrounds have long been a hallmark of the TRF experience, a place for patrons of the Faire to relax and socialize with other like-minded individuals in a communal atmosphere.

Unfortunately, that tradition has been sullied by the influx of people coming to the campgrounds simply to have a place to throw an out of control party and get intoxicated and/or high, and lose all sense of responsibility. This trend is leading to less and less enjoyment of the campgrounds to the point where people have stated that despite camping there for years, they would not want to camp anymore due to the dangers present. Other campers are worried about or even hesitant to bring their children or their friends out to the campgrounds due to the dangers involved.

The Texas Renaissance Festival, while an entertaining and exciting place to visit, has a rapidly escalating peripheral problem that many patrons feel should be immediately addressed. (<<emotional adjectives should be avoided, and strong imperatives used to compel attention)

We, the Undersigned, do hereby submit this petition requesting increased security personnel and the enforced cessation of dangerous and illegal activities taking place within the confines of the TRF campground. (<< the preamble should end here)

The campground has long been an intrinsic element of the TRF experience, a place for patrons of the Faire to relax and socialize in a safe, convivial atmosphere. Unfortunately, this experience is being compromised by an overwhelming influx of people who do not attend TRF itself, many of whom are minors, coming to the campgrounds with the express intent to promote out of control parties, become highly intoxicated, use and/or distribute illegal substances, and indulge in destructive and often violent behavior. This trend is discouraging usage of the campground by long-term patrons, and causing others to cease attending Faire altogether. Many patrons have also become hesitant to bring their children or their friends to TRF due to the perceived dangers and unpleasant experiences now associated with camping.

I have not had time to tinker with the rest of the document, but I believe the sentiments expressed in it are sound. Of course, this opinion is offered by a TRF camping virgin, so take that into account when reading!   

[rumy]

i think in general, that is a very good summation of how we all feel.  thanks for creating this and making it sound formal

[ScoutColt]

I'd sign the petition except for the last line. The whole "must have ticket". You are obviously one who goes in every weekend. (nothing wrong with that) There are ALOT of us rennies that don't. Alot of us rennies don't have the money to do so, and raising the "price" to go see your friends and family via a large reunion is not the answer.

But, if it ever goes that way, your going to find myself, many others and probabaly all of the ravers (because they aren't dumb) will buy a single ticket and hold onto it for all of faire so they can camp. 16 bucks and bam, they are still there for a season.

Law enforcement is one of the best answers but how do you keep your buddies from getting nailed in the crossfire? How many on here have done ANYTHING illegal at faire? Now do we want to see any of us carted off because we asked for the major crackdown? Is it worth it to ya?

Otherwise though, the petitions good... except it's a directionless writing. It's asking for plenty but not offering anything. (ie: we will stop camping, we will pay more) It's a give and take with these kinds of things. They will want something in return. They always do.

[Tanyor]

You know the saying "out of site out of mind". I've done illegal stuff at faire. But I don't wave a flag over my head. Were not attacking people who have a good time. Were worried about the people who decide that there actions are irreverent because no one enforces them to follow rules.

Anywhere there is a gathering there is illegal stuff going on. Where not here to be hypocrites. All were asking is something to be done about the people who seem to have no respect for other's or themselves.

the only way they can enforce the tickets is to move the guard shacks. But the idea was to either purchase one (which could be sold later ) or to raise the price to entice the TRF staff to listen to our petition, and also benefiting us( with safer camping) and the TRF staff( with $$).

[Captain Kilian]

Ok, well there seem to be a limited number of viable options. Petitions are great, but can ultimately be ignored. We can hope they wont be, but really I doubt if those with an issue at camping would put a big enough dent in the King's pocket for policy to be changed. So the answers that I see, if you boil it down are just two, that we, as normal patrons can do ourselves.

1) take back the circle. We show up, we run it our way, and we leave little room for anything else. The problem of course with this is the likelihood of confrontation, and the dedication required. People are profiting from this debauchery (that damned bus with all it's lights and shiner bock doing the girls gone wild style filming was not there out of the kindness of its heart last year) and are not going to go away easily.

2) We make our own, and control it. Maybe one of the established camps feels like hosting it, or we can come together and figure out where and how to set up a separate circle just for those that enjoy the more tribal, safe, feel to it. Should this prove effective, I figure it would have the other effect of letting the ravers fight with just themselves, and give poor Mike and Charlie and their co-workers an easy bulls eye. (I have a ton of respect for the cops that are out there, in the camps, busting there weed puller for our safety. We'd love to have more, but VERY few MAJOR things have happened at TRF - a testament to how hard a few people work in sea of drunks).

Either requires effort on OUR part, not just expecting things to be run our way because we happen to think it would be the best. So first thing, I would guess we should take measure of how committed we are to having such a thing, or if we should just suck it up and not go or not cry. This debate happens every year, and this weekend seemed pretty calm compared to a few weekends last year.

Just my two cents.

[ScoutColt]

I agree entirely Killian. We need to solve the problem, but I dont think taking back the bonfire will end up well for us due to your mentioned confronation.

The second idea is wonderful, but nobody is quite willing to step up. Heck I'm sure my group would be happy to have it, as long as we knew we'd have a bit of help cleaning it up in the mornings and some help keeping it all civil... but we're camping in the boonies out near The Rogues.

We have run our party the last three years and made our own large bonfire and we've made a protected circle for the spinners and breathers and quadranted everything off, so we know it can be done. Ask any of the performers at our party and they will tell you they always have more than enough room. People at the party will also tell you theres never been a problem thats escalated beyond asking someone to politely leave too...

It can be done. But as Kilian has said... do we have the dedication to put in the effort beyond asking for help, and the self discipline not to go to far and get us all in trouble?

As for the out of sight thing... I agree. People are discreet. But guess what... Ravers aren't getting kicked out. They are obviously at least discreet enough to stay a thorn in our sides while doing their illegal activities. Who is to say that if security beefs up, that even our level of discreet can get us in trouble. Heck... these kids do this kinda thing for a living and they aren't behind bars... give them some credit. They MIGHT be just as sneaky as all of us when they NEED to be.

I didn't ponder the hypocrite thing. We aren't making a deal out of that at all. Nobody has said we dont do what they do to an extent. We are controlled (most of the time) and they are not... that is what we have the problem with. Nobody here that I've seen is pointing fingers at each other in the least. I, personally, am just trying to point out the double edged sword that asking for such a ramp in security can bring about. Cops don't see ravers and rennies... they see legal and illegal. Heck, being as one of the more "legal oriented" folks (thank you shoddy liver for saving me from extracurriculars!) I'm still worried about this because so many of my friends amongst the other clans could get popped for this when they are responsible about their activites.

[Stracc]

If our observations of the fire pit last year were any indication of the norm, and given the posts on this thread it would seem that they are, it would seem that there is some danger represented by the ravers.  I would offer the following thoughts before anything is sent to management at the faire. 

Lawsuits for negligence are often based on the forseeability that an injury might occur and the prudence or lack thereof on the part of the defendant in preventing it.  If I look at the activities of the less "controlled" participants of camping at TRF I could pick dozens of potientially devistating lawsuits that might be brought on behalf of injured persons.  Just consider the possibiltiy of an angry drunk raver driving over a tent in the middle of the night. 

Any event such as TRF has to have general liability or commercial insurance policies in place.  While there are a variety of types of policies, the premiums can be more or less depending on the activities taking place on the business premises.  I would expect that it costs more or higher premiums to provide a camping area which probably explains why some faires (Scarborough) elect not to have camping and why some faires even prohibit alcohol (why even go?).

My point is (and it has been made better by others in this thread I am sure) that while the factual merit of the proposed petition is without a doubt as valid as it can be, any pressure that may be put on management could result in the unintended outcome of discontinuing camping.  The petition would be discoverable in a lawsuit by a plaintiff, and if an attorney reviewed the Petition after is was sent, he would be guilty of malpractice in my opinion if he did not advise management to discontinue or significantly curtail the camping at TRF, or tell TRF that significant additional resources should be allocated to manage the risk presented by the current situation.

I have a compromise suggestion which would increase security for the campers without creating an oppressive environment and actually lower the cost of operation for TRF with respect to their insurance costs.  If a pool were created so that each camper put an additional $10.00 fee/donation/whatever into a fund for the retention of a private security company - and if TRF management gave official consent to the hiring of patron security to supplement the constable who is already present, it would provide a responsive and "patron centered" solution to our problem while allowing TRF management to report to their insurer that they have hired additional security which would likely lower their premiums.  The $10.00 fee would more than pay for the cost with the number of campers that I have observed.  The additional fee would not likely be paid by ravers who would rather not camp than pay the cost of their party killers.

Just a thought...

[Tanyor]

If I look at the activities of the less "controlled" participants of camping at TRF I could pick dozens of potentially devastating lawsuits that might be brought on behalf of injured persons.  Just consider the possibiltiy of an angry drunk raver driving over a tent in the middle of the night. 

I read somewhere that just happened last weekend. But thanks to a fast acting father.

First off I don't want to loose camping at TRF. But it just seems like something is bound to happen. and that's what I worry about. I'm not worried about the illegal activities. I'm more worried about things getting way out of control to the point that as Stracc mention that the camping has become to much of a hassle for TRF because of a lawsuit. Its is TRF land and we are guests there. I would just like to let the TRF staff know that something needs to be done, before something happens.   

But I like your idea Stracc something tells me this is your Niche.

Something need to be done quickly before someone's kid get killed again and a lawsuit ensues for lack of mismanagement.

In highschool I've seen 2 places we used to hang out at closed up because of a lethal accident.

[Lord Dragonspyre]

People are profiting from this debauchery (that damned bus with all it's lights and shiner bock doing the girls gone wild style filming was not there out of the kindness of its heart last year) and are not going to go away easily.

Do not blaspheme the holy virtues of debauchery by equating it with such drivel!

A true practicioner of the debauching arts needs not group pressure, fancy parlor tricks, nor mind altering substances to successfully engage and debauch a person. All it takes is a quick wit, a silver tongue, and the ability and will to use them.

What you claim to be "debauchery" at the Fire Circle is naught more than the modern day equivalent of clubbing a woman over the head and dragging her back to the cave by her hair.

TRUE Debauchery takes finesse.


Thus Sayeth the Horseman of Debauchery.

[Captain Kilian]

Aye my apologies. While writing I was thinking with my "Mundane mind" and thus forgot the fine art that Lord DS hath now reminded me of.

[Rani Zemirah]

.......  wow  .......

I think I might even stand in line for a little of your particular brand of debauchery, M'Lord...

talk about silver tongue...

[Macintyre]

i also like idea number 2.  it might work rather well if there were several groups to get together and set up all 3 or 4 of thier camp sights togther with tents and rv's surrounding said fire so as to block if off from unwanted outside danes and only advertise it to those that would like to come and enjoy the friendly, relaxing, atmosphere that we're all looking for.

[Wolfden]

It seems that every year after the start of TRF this thread keeps coming back and, my perception, is that the situation is not getting any better and perhaps worse. I choose not to camp because I don't want to be around this type of nonsense for fear of having things escalate out of control.

Police offers are on site at the campground 24/7 and, though they are hired to work security by TRF, they are still TX peace officers sworn to enforce the law. If illegal or dangerous activity is taking place, they need to be notified every time. If the number of incidents spike, then the Sherriff's Dept, or whatever agency has jurisdiction over Todd Mission, will require TRF to hire more officers and clean the place up. By law, TRF can not open without a minimum number of police officers on site, and that number is recommended by the Sherriff or Constable based upon attendance and number of reported incidents. While TRF can refuse to hire the recommended number of officers, law enforcement can refuse to provide any officers. Talk to the officers in the campground about your concerns, and seek out the on site police supervisor as well. If you still feel the situation is not improving, call or email the Grimes County Sherriff directly. I firmly believe that this is the best way to make the campground safer since TRF must answer and address any concerns raised by law enforcement so let's get them on our side.

And let me address another point that was put forth: No, I have NEVER done anything illegal at faire. I like to think I am mature and intelligent enough to understand the ramifications and consequences on my actions and I avoid putting myself or those around me into those situations. A DUI, possession or disorderly conduct arrest will follow me the rest of my life and could keep me from getting a job, security clearance, loan, apartment or professional license. I mean no disrespect to anyone else, I am only speaking for myself, others must march to the beat of their own drum. Stepping down from my soapbox now.