YeOldeRF

Author Topic: Chain Maille Question  (Read 9212 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ALS

  • R/F.com Member
  • Posts: 109
Re: Chain Maille Question
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2009, 09:31:11 AM »
Maille is a very good defense, the reasons for the developmemnt of plate to in large part eventually suplant maille as the standard for body armour are manyfold, but roughly 1) medieval European armies increasing relaince on large numbers of missle troops, archers or crossbowman and the development of the bodkin arrow head for armour pierceing, 2) the growing focus and increasing numbers of infantryman on the field, with better armour and increasingly armed with pole arms, 3) changes in sword blade design to a hallow ground sharply tapered blade much more suited to thrusting.

Maille is a good stout defense and plate armour never managed to eclipse it completley.

Offline jcbanner

  • R/F.com Member
  • Posts: 281
Re: Chain Maille Question
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2009, 10:22:00 AM »
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue that butted maile was the norm, or even common, really, I'm here simply for the sake of argument since more is learned from argument and debate then is from simply accepting something. 

Now vikings having duct tape is an absurd argument because there is a recorded date of creation.  But butted maile in essence is an un-finished product, so even if it wasn't used, there is the possibility of it being used.  The same as an absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, the mere possibility of something is not evidence either. But it is grounds to open argument.

As faulty as the arguments in favor of butted maile are, what sources do you have that positively deny the use?  I'll take your word that modern academics accept that butted maile was not used, but surely there has to be a better reason then finding a large number of riveted maile armors vs. finding almost no butted maile armors.

Offline jcbanner

  • R/F.com Member
  • Posts: 281
Re: Chain Maille Question
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2009, 01:02:25 PM »

As faulty as the arguments in favor of butted maile are, what sources do you have that positively deny the use?  I'll take your word that modern academics accept that butted maile was not used, but surely there has to be a better reason then finding a large number of riveted maile armors vs. finding almost no butted maile armors.


Unless you fell like answering the last question just for the sake of discussion, go ahead and scratch it out.  Reading though some other topics here I saw you post that in studying armor, if there is not direct evidence to show the existence of something, even it it was a likely possibility, it didn't exist.  At that point it  becomes an argument of philosophy and I get enough of that in science.

Offline ALS

  • R/F.com Member
  • Posts: 109
Re: Chain Maille Question
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2009, 02:04:02 PM »
Quote
Unless you fell like answering the last question just for the sake of discussion, go ahead and scratch it out.  Reading though some other topics here I saw you post that in studying armor, if there is not direct evidence to show the existence of something, even it it was a likely possibility, it didn't exist.  At that point it  becomes an argument of philosophy and I get enough of that in science.

I manufacture armour for a living and deal with a large array of folks wanting it for many different reasons, ren faire use, larping, simple collecting, Western Martial Arts, various fight organiztions and living history folks as well comming into contact with museum folks and acedemics. The first three groups have accuracy as a secondary or further back concern, the last sets of folks pay a great deal of attention to accuracy and do a great deal of study as an adjunct to martial study or re-enacting or obviously in the case of museums and acedemics thier jobs. They avoid " could have beens " as much as is possible, and there is a pretty large knowlege base out there of life during those times. There are of course holes in our knowlege but rather than fudge it, unless there is some evidence pointing the way they prefer to not speculate to maintain accuracy. If they set that aside that is where the slippery slope comes in, at that point anyone can claim anything they want is accurate based simply on " you can't prove they didn't have it ". In the case of butted maille there simply is no record, either written, artistic or archeological of butted maille being made or used in Europe. There are several woodcuts from the 15th and 16th century showing maille makers at work in thier shoppes and they are all manufacturing riveted maille. In the face of this there is simply no reason to conclude other wise at this time. Will some one stumble upon a find at some point in the future that may change this, its certainly possible, it happens all the time and would be a big deal in terms of growing the knowlege base, but there is currently simly no evidence at all of its existance and thus no reason to conclude it was used in the face of that.

You can of course have the " who'd win in a fight Spiderman or Superman " theoretical discussion about it, but this will of course be devoid of the crucial determiner of truth, facts and proof. As i've said several times if it turns out someday that " the find " turns up it would be great and would certainly make me happy but until then the likelyhood that you'll change minds with " well they could have " is fairly small. 

Offline Monsignor de Beaumanoir

  • True R/F.com Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1698

Offline ALS

  • R/F.com Member
  • Posts: 109
Re: Chain Maille Question
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2009, 03:23:18 PM »
I was under the impression that the discussion was regarding the medieval and renaissance periods based on the following statement by Macbain
Quote
The overwhelming majority of maille from the twelth to the fifteenth century was butted maille and about fifty fifty in the sixteenth and was still frequently used throughout.
.

I am familiar with both the armour archive where I post fairly often, and the chart linked to, but the mixed butted link solid link examples sighted in it are all pre Roman occupation or Roman occupation Celt examples from nearly 1000 years before the period under discussion. The only other example from the chart using any butted construction is an 19th century Caucus maille and plate shirt that may very well have come from Persia as there was considerable trade and exchange with Persia in this region and butted maille was common there from the 18th century on and regardless falls well out side of the period under discussion. If we're going to go that late the British were producing butted maille in sheets from machines in facotries that they were then turning around and selling to the Sudanese to make armour out of which the British would end up shooting holes through with machine guns at the battle of Ombdurman ( which Winston Chrurchill fought at ). I used to have have a very late 19th century suit of it in my collection.

I mentioned this fella earlier in this thread but really the guy to talk to is Erik D. Schmidt at The Mail REsearch Society http://www.themailresearchsociety.erikds.com/ he is regarded pretty much globally as THE expert in mail, he's the kind of guy that museums consult with.

Offline Monsignor de Beaumanoir

  • True R/F.com Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1698
Re: Chain Maille Question
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2009, 03:34:39 PM »

Offline ALS

  • R/F.com Member
  • Posts: 109
Re: Chain Maille Question
« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2009, 12:28:43 PM »
A wide array of articles on maille avaliable in PDF format here http://www.themailresearchsociety.erikds.com/other_research_articles.html

Offline Monsignor de Beaumanoir

  • True R/F.com Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1698
Re: Chain Maille Question
« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2009, 02:56:14 PM »
ALS, you don't also happen to do the Greek Hoplite persona?

Offline Chris B

  • R/F.com Member
  • Posts: 271
Re: Chain Maille Question
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2009, 08:33:48 PM »
ALS, you don't also happen to do the Greek Hoplite persona?

Am I missing something here?  Do you mean my Corinthian and Athenian impressions?  I haven't seen anyone else on these forums attempt a Hoplite before. 

Offline Monsignor de Beaumanoir

  • True R/F.com Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1698
Re: Chain Maille Question
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2009, 05:30:18 AM »
Ouch! You have me Sir. I was more specifically wondering if he kitted out as ........a Spartan.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2009, 08:16:35 AM by Warrior_Monk »

Offline ALS

  • R/F.com Member
  • Posts: 109
Re: Chain Maille Question
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2009, 09:50:44 AM »
Monk, we don't do much before the Viking age with the exception of our round shield and Roman greaves. Chris actually did a fair amount of his own kit for that persona, hammering out his own greaves and breast plate as well as making his shield, all with an eye to extreme accuracy. There are not to many folks doing early classical work, Joe Pila from Lonely Mountain Forge http://www.lonelymountain.hoplologia.org/greek.htm is one of the few folks focussing on it and he does some very nice stuff in the period. There is of course the India made option but most if not all of it leaves something to be desired, unless your willing to do alot of your own reworking ( which is not uncommon, alot of Roman re-enactors do exactly that ).

Offline Monsignor de Beaumanoir

  • True R/F.com Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1698
Re: Chain Maille Question
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2009, 10:26:14 AM »
Thank you Sir. I was wondering if you also went by the screen name of Dr Jim or Tom...in another set of social websites, that's why I asked. ;D

Chris may know who I'm talking about.

Offline Chris B

  • R/F.com Member
  • Posts: 271
Re: Chain Maille Question
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2009, 11:04:14 AM »
Thank you Sir. I was wondering if you also went by the screen name of Dr Jim or Tom...in another set of social websites, that's why I asked. ;D

Chris may know who I'm talking about.

http://www.myspace.com/doctorjim51

When you said that it sparked my memory that he is on my friends list on myspace.  He has emailed me a few times talking about the Greek armor, but I do not know him well.

Manning Imperial makes the best stuff I have seen for Greek.

Offline ALS

  • R/F.com Member
  • Posts: 109
Re: Chain Maille Question
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2009, 01:31:56 PM »
Chris is right, I completely forgot about Manning, they do excellent work ( so much so that I think they're booked about three years out ). Don't know Dr. Jim but he seems to take re-enacting pretty seriously.

 

Web hosting provided by www.RangeHosting.us