YeOldeRF

Author Topic: Noble Skirts and pleating  (Read 2553 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MistressCrowfeather

  • R/F.com Member
  • Posts: 10
Noble Skirts and pleating
« on: May 14, 2008, 12:34:36 AM »
How many gores do you like to use in a noble skirt?  I have 5 in my kirtle, and that's quite a bit of material.  Also, you may have seen my other post, but if not, the gown I'm doing is similar to this gown: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v609/glittersweet/saya/1584fdellanaisabella.jpg

My other, more pressing question is this:  What sort of pleating do you think would look best on this gown?  I'm not tying the front of the skirt closed, and it is cut to stay open.  You can't really see pleating in this portrait because the doublet and girdle cover the waist.
My kirtle skirt is knife-pleated, and this gown is going over that.

Offline Cilean

  • R/F.com Member
  • Posts: 650
  • Fabricologist Garbmaker)O(Faire Finger Thrower)O(
    • Silver Semptress
Re: Noble Skirts and pleating
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2008, 01:41:23 AM »
           

This is the information on the Funeral Dress of Eleanor de toledo, she was of Spanish orgins through Naples. I hope this helps.
Cilean




Here is the actual gown from Moda A Firenze



So in Moda a Firenze it has the gown there was a rectangle in the front part of the gown next on each side a triangle which fitted what looks like 2 rectangles which were gathered into the back of the gown. It gave the conical view we see.

Perhaps this is how they did the other gown as well, since it is also a Spanish styled gown?

Typically I put 16 inches in the front and then use cartridge or knife pleating from the side of my gowns.



« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 01:53:13 AM by Cilean »
Lady Cilean Stirling
"Looking Good is not an Option, It is a Necessity"
My Motto? Never Pay Retail

Offline DonaCatalina

  • R/F.com Member
  • Posts: 4563
  • Catalina Lopez de Xerez y Osorio de Moscoso
Re: Noble Skirts and pleating
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2008, 06:39:09 AM »
You can see the pleating on this dress fairly well, but the gores don't show up in the painting.
This is a Florentine made dress similar in construction to the one in the portrait of Eleonor Alvarez de Toledo. It is also painted by Agnolo Bronzino, or at least his workshop.
http://www.geocities.com/ailithmac/Florentine.jpg
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 06:39:49 AM by DonaCatalina »
Aurum peccamenes multifariam texit
Marquesa de Trives
Portrait Goddess

Offline nliedel

  • R/F.com Member
  • Posts: 337
  • la bellezza è dolore
    • Beauty is Pain
Re: Noble Skirts and pleating
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2008, 09:59:07 AM »
The heavier pleating in the back of the Toledo gown is something I think I would like to try on one of my dresses. Not flat in the front, but not as full, does that make sense?
My journey from mundane to Ren Actor

Offline Lady Kathleen of Olmsted

  • R/F.com Member
  • Posts: 2561
  • Maker of Fyne Attyre, Royal Wardrobe Designer
    • Custom Desgns By Lady Kathleen
Re: Noble Skirts and pleating
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2008, 10:21:40 AM »
The Eleanor of Toledo gown is one I have been wanting to make for some time.  Gorgeous indeed.

One can make the skirt as full as one needs it to be. The back looks like wider spaced cartridge pleating like 2" apart.
"As with Art as in Life, nothing succeeds like excess.".....Oscar Wilde

Offline nliedel

  • R/F.com Member
  • Posts: 337
  • la bellezza è dolore
    • Beauty is Pain
Re: Noble Skirts and pleating
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2008, 11:45:08 AM »
I'm going to be lazy and use my knife pleat setting on my ruffler. It does a really good job, as long as the fabric isn't too bulky and knife pleats were very Italian. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. I'm terrified of cartridge pleats. I've read every account online, looked at every visual demonstration and I'm just not smart enough to do it.
My journey from mundane to Ren Actor

Baroness Doune

  • Guest
Re: Noble Skirts and pleating
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2008, 01:02:21 PM »
Spanish skirts have almost no fullness in the front of the skirt at the waistline.
The back of the skirt is anyone's guess but I cartridge pleated mine and padded the pleats.

Anne of Austria, Queen of Spain, Portrait Interpretation

Offline MistressCrowfeather

  • R/F.com Member
  • Posts: 10
Re: Noble Skirts and pleating
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2008, 03:02:43 PM »
Ok, so we're thinking cartridge pleating from the sides and back.  Does anyone have a simplified explaination of the process?  I'm just about ready to attempt it, and I want to see if anybody has any ideas to make it less terrifying.  It seems to be a neater version of gathering.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 03:09:25 PM by MistressCrowfeather »

Offline Cilean

  • R/F.com Member
  • Posts: 650
  • Fabricologist Garbmaker)O(Faire Finger Thrower)O(
    • Silver Semptress
Re: Noble Skirts and pleating
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2008, 05:34:17 PM »


Okay well I have the primer on cartridge pleating with Drea's Site:
http://www.elizabethancostume.net/cartpleat/

Some peope use gingam fabric and sew it with wool and then use it as a guide for the needles.

Cilean



Lady Cilean Stirling
"Looking Good is not an Option, It is a Necessity"
My Motto? Never Pay Retail

Baroness Doune

  • Guest
Re: Noble Skirts and pleating
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2008, 07:27:14 PM »
I use a similar method to the gingham but I use strips of Tru-Grid, instead, and cut and tear it away afterward.

The outside of Ladiedragon's skirt (this was her first attempt at cartridge pleating.)


The important inside of Ladiedragon's skirt.

Offline operafantomet

  • R/F.com Member
  • Posts: 1015
    • The Anéa Costume Site
Re: Noble Skirts and pleating
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2008, 04:51:29 AM »
I use a similar method to the gingham but I use strips of Tru-Grid, instead, and cut and tear it away afterward.

The outside of Ladiedragon's skirt (this was her first attempt at cartridge pleating.)
*pic removed*

The important inside of Ladiedragon's skirt.
*pic removed*
That is very similar to how I pleated the skirt for the pink Bronzino dress. The portrait shows very tight and rich cartridge pleating, something I didn't copy when I first made the dress. But when I re-modelled the dress I also re-pleated the skirt, and tried to get the pleating as close as possible to the portrait. I have a picture where the girdle slips a bit, which gives a good view to the skirt pleating:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/bronzino/newlucrezia2.jpg

The skirt is two un-gored panels sewn together, and the pleating is made using two threads to give full support. The strings are left in even when the skirt is sewn to the bodice. I think the goring is the reason why pleating in the waist became less fashionable. Goring allows fullness of the skirt, without having to deal with all the fabric in the waist. Spanish fartingale fashion is an extreme example of this. Early Florentine fashion shows lots of rich pleating, and I think this is partly due to less goring/shaping of panels. I don't know if they used as straight panels as I did in the Bronzino dress, but I'm guessing at least something similar.

I love the pleating of these skirts!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/raphaelgown/r_unicorn.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/bronzino/bronzino6.jpg

Edited because I don't like to quote pictures.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2008, 04:52:19 AM by operafantomet »

Offline LaurenLee

  • R/F.com Member
  • Posts: 96
Re: Noble Skirts and pleating
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2008, 06:32:08 AM »
I have always cartridge-pleated my Civil War dresses by hand; but someone , somewhere, mentioned drapery-pleating tape; I found some and bought several yards, cut it in half as it is very wide, and am about to try it on my next Elizabethan.  It looks wonderfully easy (other seamstresses I know use something called TigerTape as a guide, too, but I've not tried that yet).

By the time the 19th century rolled around, goring was very popular among the wealthier class.  However, less fortunate women who had to pass their clothing down to daughters tended to detach their skirts from the waistband when the hems got too worn, trim off the worn part if it was really bad, flip them over and re-pleat the former hem-edge to the waistband, thereby extending the wear of the dress (for a daughter or shorter woman!) (you could hide alot of faded or worn fabric within the pleats).

Ladies, aren't pleats sooooo forgiving for all that portion of "us" that is squeezed out the bottom of the infernal corsets?   :D

Offline Willemyne

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 5
Re: Noble Skirts and pleating
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2009, 12:34:12 AM »
Sorry for replying to an old post, but the link goes to my photobucket album so I think i am allowed ;) Also ratehr than post a new thread it makes sense to follow on here.

Spanish skirts have no fullness in the front, very little in the side and possibly some in the back. The extant spanish girl's skirt of 1600 is made of four gores with a tuck at the back (not at the front unlike the portraits) and has very little pleating.

I finally found an image that shows the back of a Spanish gown, but is an imaginary painting of the Emperor and his family (including those passed over) it may not be perfect. It does however fit in with the shapes we see in other paintings and in alcega.

Basically it shows pleats only at the very centre back, possibly a double reverse box pleat or two knife pleats. All the rest of the shaping is done by the cut of the gores, probably some easing around the rest of the waist as well but not enough to be called gathered. I have successfully tried this in a skirt I cut almost directly from Alcega and it works very well. I have recently cut a skirt with a slightly narrower waist which only just has enough room for that double box pleat and it works even better. When I get my fabric ironed I'll pin my skirt to my form again to illustrate this :)

Let's see if I can find the painting....
http://www.kalipedia.com/arte/tema/pintura.html?x=20070718klparthis_89.Kes&ap=3
note how the pleats radiate from the centre back rather that evenly around the waist.

Offline DonaCatalina

  • R/F.com Member
  • Posts: 4563
  • Catalina Lopez de Xerez y Osorio de Moscoso
Re: Noble Skirts and pleating
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2009, 10:49:23 AM »
Sorry for replying to an old post, but the link goes to my photobucket album so I think i am allowed ;) Also ratehr than post a new thread it makes sense to follow on here.

Spanish skirts have no fullness in the front, very little in the side and possibly some in the back. The extant spanish girl's skirt of 1600 is made of four gores with a tuck at the back (not at the front unlike the portraits) and has very little pleating.

I finally found an image that shows the back of a Spanish gown, but is an imaginary painting of the Emperor and his family (including those passed over) it may not be perfect. It does however fit in with the shapes we see in other paintings and in alcega.

Basically it shows pleats only at the very centre back, possibly a double reverse box pleat or two knife pleats. All the rest of the shaping is done by the cut of the gores, probably some easing around the rest of the waist as well but not enough to be called gathered. I have successfully tried this in a skirt I cut almost directly from Alcega and it works very well. I have recently cut a skirt with a slightly narrower waist which only just has enough room for that double box pleat and it works even better. When I get my fabric ironed I'll pin my skirt to my form again to illustrate this :)

Let's see if I can find the painting....
http://www.kalipedia.com/arte/tema/pintura.html?x=20070718klparthis_89.Kes&ap=3
note how the pleats radiate from the centre back rather that evenly around the waist.
Huzzah!
Aurum peccamenes multifariam texit
Marquesa de Trives
Portrait Goddess

 

Web hosting provided by www.RangeHosting.us
YeOldeRF