Italian gown, seeking input

[Valencia]

Hi, everyone. I haven't been posting on these forums much, I spent most of the winter sewing dog jammies instead of garb. Last weekend was the first faire of the season, and now I want to make a new gown! I bought blue brocade-like fabric yesterday, it's a nice, medium blue.  I was thinking about making an italian gown.  I am super in love with these gowns:


This one really shows the design I am looking for:


I know there is a big debate over whether or not corsets were worn. I think it looks like it, the lines on the women are very straight. What I would like to do is either wear a camicia over a corset, and use a fake camicia lining under the lacing, similar to what is discussed here: http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/library/corset.htm. What do you think about this? 

Regarding the straps, they appear to be very narrow, maybe an inch or so wide? And in the picture of the woman with the red dress, they look to be made out of a different fabric, which means they are sewn on to the bodice, not cut out of the same piece.  What I really can't tell is how the sleeves attach... it almost looks like the shoulder straps have lacy lacing holes or something that the sleeves attach to.

This was the only photo I found that shows part of the back of the gown. It appears the back of the bodice is just cut straight across. Does that seem right? 


All of the girls are wearing partlets. What type of material would I make the partlet from? It looks sheer, and when I looked at Joanns, the sheer materials are all polyester.  What have you guys used before?  And does anyone have a link for how to make these? They look different than the English partlets I've seen. 

The skirts look nice and full, and I love the look. I cannot find mention of a farthingale being used under them, but it almost looks like the have a narrow one, or a lot of petticoats.  I would like to wear a farthingale with one, would that look funny?

And lastly, dare I ask about headgear? I found information on a balzo, but I couldn't find a really good how-to to make one.  I know some of you wear italian gowns, what headgear do you have? I currently wear a french hood, and am starting a new one in the next few days, but I'm thinking it wouldn't go with the italian gown. Thoughts? 

Thank you in advance for any input or advice, I really, REALLY appreciate it. I'd like to start the gown in the next few days, and have it wearable for the next faire in May.

[isabelladangelo]

You might want to check out Oonagh's page on corsets: http://www.geocities.com/technically_naked/gruesome_truth.htm

The straps are of the same material.  The red dress is just velvet and the straps got crushed.

The bodice is cut straight across in the upper back and sometimes has a point in the back around the waist.   

Partlets can be made out of various sheer silks like organza.   I'd check out ebay or fabric.com since I've gotten some lovely silks off of both.   Check out english partlet designs (I think on Elizabethan Costuming website?) for how to make your own.

According the Clothing of the Renaissance World which is 1580's, farthingales were used.   

Simple veils for headgear.  Just get some extra sheer silk and use that.

[mollymishap]

Here's what I did when I made an Italian-inspired gown a few years back.  I just realized I never updated the page on the chemise, so I'll just tell you what my solution was: a bib.  It attaches to the front neckline of the chemise so that the body of the chemise is worn under the corset, and the bib then falls over the corset to conceal it, allowing the chemise's "bib" to show under the ladder lacing.  If I have some time this weekend, I'll add some pics to the website so that you can see what I mean. 
HTH!

[Lady Kathleen of Olmsted]

Silk Organza is the sheerest fabric used for Partlets. From the Italian paintings I have seen, it's the Nobility and Royalty wearing Silk Organza.

Also, a Cotton Voile resembles a Hankerchief Linen. Sheer, yet covers.

[Artemisia]

Here's my construction notes on my venetian, as my avatar. I added a boned inner layer to the bodice instead of wearing a corset. The only thing I would change for a second venetian is sew the fashion fabric to the inner boning structure as in this picture and pleat in extra fabric instead of making an opening in the skirt.

I agree with Lady Kathleen on the fabric choices for partlets. One method on constructing a parlet can be found here.

[Valencia]

Ok, I found silk organza and will order it today, it looks perfect. Thank you, Lady Kathleen!

Artemisia, thanks a million for those links. I agree with the fashion fabric wrapped around and pinned, I made the mistake of not doing that on my french hood, and it drives me NUTS.  Your pictures of the bodice were really helpful. I need to get cracking on cutting out a pattern!

Thanks again, you guys, your help is greatly appreciated!

[Cilean]

Hello!

I adore Italian City State myself and often will make my Tourney Garb for the SCA. so I also adore Realm of Venus, where you can check out what others do!
Here is a link to someone making a gown like you want!

http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/yourgarb/2008/Fiore.htm

http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/yourgarb/2007/Bess.htm

http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/yourgarb/2007/Collette.htm

http://www.festiveattyre.com/research/venetian/index.html

http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/yourgarb/2006/Susan.htm


So I hope these will help you out!

Cilean

[operafantomet]

Hi, everyone. I haven't been posting on these forums much, I spent most of the winter sewing dog jammies instead of garb. Last weekend was the first faire of the season, and now I want to make a new gown! I bought blue brocade-like fabric yesterday, it's a nice, medium blue.  I was thinking about making an italian gown.  I am super in love with these gowns:
http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/Banquet.jpg

This one really shows the design I am looking for:
http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/LicinioWWBook.jpg

I know there is a big debate over whether or not corsets were worn. I think it looks like it, the lines on the women are very straight. What I would like to do is either wear a camicia over a corset, and use a fake camicia lining under the lacing, similar to what is discussed here: http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/library/corset.htm. What do you think about this? 

Regarding the straps, they appear to be very narrow, maybe an inch or so wide? And in the picture of the woman with the red dress, they look to be made out of a different fabric, which means they are sewn on to the bodice, not cut out of the same piece.  What I really can't tell is how the sleeves attach... it almost looks like the shoulder straps have lacy lacing holes or something that the sleeves attach to.

This was the only photo I found that shows part of the back of the gown. It appears the back of the bodice is just cut straight across. Does that seem right? 
http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/Trictrac.JPG

All of the girls are wearing partlets. What type of material would I make the partlet from? It looks sheer, and when I looked at Joanns, the sheer materials are all polyester.  What have you guys used before?  And does anyone have a link for how to make these? They look different than the English partlets I've seen. 

The skirts look nice and full, and I love the look. I cannot find mention of a farthingale being used under them, but it almost looks like the have a narrow one, or a lot of petticoats.  I would like to wear a farthingale with one, would that look funny?

And lastly, dare I ask about headgear? I found information on a balzo, but I couldn't find a really good how-to to make one.  I know some of you wear italian gowns, what headgear do you have? I currently wear a french hood, and am starting a new one in the next few days, but I'm thinking it wouldn't go with the italian gown. Thoughts? 

Hi there!

I am online on a bad internet connection, so my reply is much shorter than what I would like...

The corset debate is an interesting one, without definitive answers as of yet. Especially the period and area you're heading for! Both "parties" argues convincingly for their case, both makes good points. I agree that the lines of the Venetian post 1550-gowns suggests a corset. Problem is that we've found no proof whatsoever of it. No surviving items, no depictions, no no literal mentions of them (neither in poems or amusing stories not inventory lists). One could argue corsets was of a private sort and not something to depict/mention, but considering the solid amount of socks, drawers, camicias, saccoccias, chopines and other more private items being both depicted and written about, the lack of evidence of corsets is striking.

ONE written source, a Venetian law passed in the 1540's, mentions this: It forbade "...a new type of bodice which being very high and going very low over the stomach - these harmful and pernicious styles produce trouble, inconvenience and ruin" (Arnold 2008: 110). I have only read the English translation, but I'm wondering whether this might refer to the enlonged, stiffened bodice becoming fashionable in the 1540's, and not actual corsets/stays. It's impossible to say, but it IS around this time the actual bodice of the dresses changed. It's is a bit "chicken and egg" discussion... was these new,long bodices due to corsets being introduced, or was the corsets adopted because these new, long bodices demanded it? I DO think corsets was eventually worn, but I personally think it happened first at the very end of the century (1580/1590 sometime).
http://geocities.com/pisslei/camicia

The book "Moda a Firenze" seems to conclude that corsets weren't used in Tuscany/Florence either (except for a metal correctional device used by Eleonora di Toledo, but this was for health reasons). They reach the same conclution about farthingales, and writes that the mentioned Eleonora was certainly aware of the fashion, being of Spanish origin, but that the Italian fashion aimed for softer lines.

However, "Moda a Firenze" writes that the bodices themselves were stiffened, often with cardboard. I wish they would elaborate their view on this, but alas... Either how, this might be the case for the Veneto area as well, leading up to the use of corsets (but I think we're talking very late 16.th century or early 17.th century here).

As for headgears, a balzo would have gone out of fashion for your chosen style of dress. It peaked somewhere around 1520, and disappeared in the 1540's. In the Veneto area the chosen "headgear" would have been a veil (as was the fashion in Lazio/Rome, but there it would almost always be golden, while Veneto seems to have been more open for variations). A bit more on balzi here:
http://www.geocities.com/pisslei/vocabulary

In Tuscany actual hats, adapted from male fashion, seemed to have been more common. This fashion was used by some Venetian women, but (it seems to me) mostly elevated and fashionable courtesans wore them. They seemed to have had a "thing" for sporting male fashion as a way of fascinating/attracting clients - the wear of drawers is said to have been a part of this fashion as well:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/tizian1530hat.jpg
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/vencourtesanca1600.jpg

As for the back of Venetian dresses, they would almost always be pointed, into a V, after the 1540's. Some backshots:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/venetian/venetian2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/caldogno2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/detail5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/caldogno1.jpg

(more Venetian dresses here: http://geocities.com/pisslei/galleryvenice )

Concerning straps, my view is that they were made out of the same material as the dress. They were placed far out on the shoulder, "hugging" the shoulders", but the cut of the back would ensure they kept in place. What you see in the woman wearing a red dress, is probably the partlet overlapping part of the shoulder straps, making the inner part look lighter in colour than the outer part.

For some gorgeous partlets, have a look here:
http://katerina.purplefiles.net/garb/Hat%20box.htm
(OK, it's Florentine stuff.... But still...)


That's all my internet line would allow, so... I hope it was of any help! 

[Valencia]

Operafantomet, that was amazingly helpful!!!  I love the pictures that show the back of the gown, I am SO glad I didn't start cutting last night. I really want that straight back on the bodice, and the point in the back.  One of the pic, http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/caldogno1.jpg, shows fabulous trim detail, I love it! It also shows the camicia, I am definitely going to do the wide sleeves like that, and maybe wear the gown without oversleeves the first faire. I'm so excited, I'm going to start prepping this beast tonight. Thank you, thank you!!!

[operafantomet]

Operafantomet, that was amazingly helpful!!!  I love the pictures that show the back of the gown, I am SO glad I didn't start cutting last night. I really want that straight back on the bodice, and the point in the back.  One of the pic, http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/caldogno1.jpg, shows fabulous trim detail, I love it! It also shows the camicia, I am definitely going to do the wide sleeves like that, and maybe wear the gown without oversleeves the first faire. I'm so excited, I'm going to start prepping this beast tonight. Thank you, thank you!!!

Glad it was of any help!  I had so little time, and I wanted to write so much! As you might have guessed, Italian Renaissance is one of my big passions in life....

The pointed V in the back is one of the things that makes a garb truly Venetian, in my eyes. I don't think it's seen elsewhere in Italy at this point, at least not as a constant feature, but the Venetians seemed nuts about it... He-he. Add it to your garb if you can.

Many of the pictures you've used as inspiration /references, is made of an Italian painted called Giovanni Antonio Fasolo ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Antonio_Fasolo ). He's decorated a couple of Palladio's villas, and in 2008 I had the amazing opportunity to visit the Veneto area to study several of his villas. One rather modest looking building called Villa Caldogno made me gasp majorly once we entered. The main hall had four enormous fresco motifs:

The dance
The concert
The banquet
The card game

They were all so wonderfully executed and preserved, and the garbs so authentic looking! The guide noticed my interest in these frescoes, and allowed me to stay behind and have an extra look. The entrance also had two similar (although narrower) motifs, but alas they had been exposed to sun and rain and was almost gone today.

I've posted some full-shots of the four "themes" here, as well as close-ups:
http://operafantomet.livejournal.com/106843.html

Check out other stuff of Fasolo, if you can. Also, Veronese painted in a very similar style, and in the same timeline. Can't wait to hear/see updates on your dress!

[Valencia]

I started making the pattern for the Italian dress, I'm super excited to get it going!   

Now, I have a question about a headdress.  I was thinking to order a sheer chiffon veil.  I'm having a hard time finding documentation on headdresses for the Italian gowns. My hair is not long enough to braid and "artfully adorn with pearls", so I'd like to have some sort of covering.  I like the idea of a veil.   It appears the woman in this painting http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/IsabellaCanossa.jpg is wearing a veil, set back fairly far on the head.  It also looks like it is attached so a short billament.  Or, this woman looks to be wearing a small balzo, perched on the back of the head:  http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CountessLivia.jpg.  This woman looks to be wearing a very sheer veil: http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/MORONINicolinis.jpg.  What do you who wear Italian gowns wear for a headdress? And can you post pictures? Thanks again!

[Artemisia]

I don't know how HA these are, but this is what I do:
http://picasaweb.google.com/moltabocca/Pennsic37#5233297917777110082
http://picasaweb.google.com/moltabocca/Pennsic37#5233298509430066178

The headwrap is a long length of linen. The middle of the cloth is placed in the front, the long ends in the back. I then twisted the long ends together and pinned the end to secure it. It took a couple of tries to make sure it didn't fall off my head. 
The black veil should be a little higher on the head. More of a courtesan look.

Most of the time I just put my hair up with the addition of fake hair braids or wear a straw hat:
http://picasaweb.google.com/moltabocca/Pennsic37#5233298240905054242

I'd love to see what others do too!

[operafantomet]

Now, I have a question about a headdress.  I was thinking to order a sheer chiffon veil.  I'm having a hard time finding documentation on headdresses for the Italian gowns. My hair is not long enough to braid and "artfully adorn with pearls", so I'd like to have some sort of covering.  I like the idea of a veil.   It appears the woman in this painting http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/IsabellaCanossa.jpg is wearing a veil, set back fairly far on the head.  It also looks like it is attached so a short billament.  Or, this woman looks to be wearing a small balzo, perched on the back of the head:  http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/CountessLivia.jpg.  This woman looks to be wearing a very sheer veil: http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/MORONINicolinis.jpg.  What do you who wear Italian gowns wear for a headdress? And can you post pictures? Thanks again!

Yay for dress progress! 

A classic Lazio/Roman fashion was to pin up the hair in some way, and wear a big, golden veil on top. The veil would cover the backside of the head, and hang down at the back of the dress. Examples here:
http://www.geocities.com/pisslei/galleryrome

Veils were also used in Tuscany and Veneto, so I think you safely can adapt this mid-1500 fashion for your Venetian dress. You don't need a lot of hair for this style, either - just enough to gather it in a small knot or similar in the back.
Venetian veil examples:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/salviati1562-64ven.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/venetian/venetian4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/groppo1603morosini.jpg

Florentine veil examples:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze3/allori1574.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze3/vasari1559b.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze3/florence1580.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze3/unknown4.jpg
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze3/alloricircle1570sedmpossibly.jpg

Or you could adopt the "pearl snood" fashion as sported by Eleonora di Toledo:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze2/bronzino1543b.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze2/bronzino1545.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze2/afterbronzino1560s.jpg

If you're heading for a lower class style, various linen hoods and drapes seems like a good option:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze3/allori1589pitti5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/bassano1570s.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/siena/girolamodpsiena1518.jpg

I personally mostly braid or pin up my hair... But I have a lot of hair! And I should be better with making snazzy Italian headwear... Artemisia, I like the linen wraps you've made - that's something to copy for sure. Thanks for sharing!

[Valencia]

Operafantomet, I love you!  : )   I super love the snood with pearls...  That is just amazing. I think I found a site with instructions on making one.  I'd love to have the fabric match my gown, how fancy would that be?

Artemisia, I love your photos!  How did you attach your veil? With a comb?   

My hair was past my butt, I cut it off last year and donated it to Locks of Love.  I'm growing it out again, but it's just a few inches past my shoulders.  It will take me another 4 years to get it past my waist, so until then, I need a headdress of some kind.

[Artemisia]

Actually I cheated. I put my shoulder length hair in a ponytail bun and attached the veil with a black hair elastic.  I folded over some of the veil over the elastic to hide it.