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Market Square => Renaissance Art => Topic started by: DonaCatalina on October 22, 2010, 09:06:44 AM

Title: Joos van Cleve (or van den Beke ) ca. 1480/90, Cleves - 1540/41,Antwerp
Post by: DonaCatalina on October 22, 2010, 09:06:44 AM
Joos was one of twenty van Cleefs who painted in Antwerp, but whether the well-known Henry, Martin, and William (the younger) were kin of his cannot be determined. Of his father, William (the elder), we know only that he was a member of the Antwerp Academy, which body Joos joined.
Joos had a talent for portraying details of sumptious fabrics, which made him popular wth wealthy patrons.
Portrait of Agniete van den Rijne
(http://www.koenvansantvoord.nl/plaatjes-kwstaat/bothwilhelm/agniete.jpg)

Title: Re: Joos van Cleve (or van den Beke ) ca. 1480/90, Cleves - 1540/41,Antwerp
Post by: DonaCatalina on October 22, 2010, 10:01:42 AM
This painting of Francois I, in Normandy, is labeled as a work of Joos Van Cleve,
but some experts believe the only part painted by him was the face.
(http://collections.musees-haute-normandie.fr/objets//m071404_0001393_p.jpg)
Title: Re: Joos van Cleve (or van den Beke ) ca. 1480/90, Cleves - 1540/41,Antwerp
Post by: Rowan MacD on October 22, 2010, 10:03:18 AM
  Trying not to drool over this.  I love the Dutch painters.

Question: Is that an embroidered black corset top showing between the red smock and the dress bodice top?
 I have seen this in a few portraits, and I am wondering if it was just a fashion thing, like a partlet or an insert, or is she really was showing off the corset?  
  And what would you call that?
  
Title: Re: Joos van Cleve (or van den Beke ) ca. 1480/90, Cleves - 1540/41,Antwerp
Post by: operafantomet on October 22, 2010, 10:35:16 AM
Question: Is that an embroidered black corset top showing between the red smock and the dress bodice top?
 I have seen this in a few portraits, and I am wondering if it was just a fashion thing, like a partlet or an insert, or is she really was showing off the corset?  
  And what would you call that?
  

I think it's a front laced underkirtle with red stomacher/modesty panel, worn under the brocaded gown. A similar recreation by Eva Andersson can be seen here:
http://web.comhem.se/~u41200125/Moresdaughter.html

It's too early for corsets in the early and mid 16th century, especially for the soft Dutch and Tudor styles.
Title: Re: Joos van Cleve (or van den Beke ) ca. 1480/90, Cleves - 1540/41,Antwerp
Post by: DonaCatalina on October 22, 2010, 02:09:20 PM
Thanks O,
I would not have been able to answer that as succintly.
Title: Re: Joos van Cleve (or van den Beke ) ca. 1480/90, Cleves - 1540/41,Antwerp
Post by: DonaCatalina on October 26, 2010, 09:37:54 AM
This is one of my favorites from the Uffizi Gallery. The detail on the sleeve is exquisite.
(oh and it is pink/rose)
(http://www.rosaryworkshop.com/PAINTING-woman-vancleve.jpg)
Title: Re: Joos van Cleve (or van den Beke ) ca. 1480/90, Cleves - 1540/41,Antwerp
Post by: Anna Iram on October 26, 2010, 09:49:11 AM
That really is such a lovley painting. I love the softness of it.
Title: Re: Joos van Cleve (or van den Beke ) ca. 1480/90, Cleves - 1540/41,Antwerp
Post by: DonaCatalina on October 28, 2010, 03:10:54 PM
Joos van Cleve made a large part of his living producing copies of paintings for customers. Either he or some of his clients had a thing for the rape of Lucretia  (http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/ROME/RAPE.HTM) since he did several versions.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Joos_van_cleve%2C_lucretia_%281515-1518%29.JPG/493px-Joos_van_cleve%2C_lucretia_%281515-1518%29.JPG)
Title: Re: Joos van Cleve (or van den Beke ) ca. 1480/90, Cleves - 1540/41,Antwerp
Post by: DonaCatalina on November 08, 2010, 10:01:32 AM
Eleonor of Austria.
This is probably one of Van Cleve's best nown works. This one was painted about 1530 and shows Eleonor in the Spanish attire that she was famous for, with a lot of fabric detail. It currently resides in the Kunsthistorisches Museum, Vienna.

(http://ritratti.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/eleonora-queen-of-france-joos-van-clevebmp.jpg?w=477&h=571)
Title: Re: Joos van Cleve (or van den Beke ) ca. 1480/90, Cleves - 1540/41,Antwerp
Post by: DonaCatalina on December 07, 2010, 10:34:05 AM
Emperor Maximilian I circa 1510
I have no idea what the significance of the flower in this painting is.
(http://www.lib-art.com/imgpainting/2/3/40932-portrait-of-maximilian-i-unknown-master-flemish.jpg)
Title: Re: Joos van Cleve (or van den Beke ) ca. 1480/90, Cleves - 1540/41,Antwerp
Post by: operafantomet on December 08, 2010, 01:38:08 AM
Emperor Maximilian I circa 1510
I have no idea what the significance of the flower in this painting is.
http://www.lib-art.com/imgpainting/2/3/40932-portrait-of-maximilian-i-unknown-master-flemish.jpg

Hard to say, I agree. The version you posted is a copy of the original. The copy was painted after his death (ca. 1530), and the flower seems a little blurry. In the original he's definitely holding a carnation:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Joos_van_Cleve_006.jpg

Carnation usually related to christianity, sometimes as a blessed flower from the virgin Mary, sometimes as a sign of God's omnipresent gaze. It could also be a sign of betrothal. Maximilian I had the original painted in 1508-09, and it was in between his three marriages. I don't see a link there. So I'm guessing he is to express something religious. It might correspond with him getting papal approval as emperor in 1508. Maximilian was the head of the Holy Roman empire, which for centuries had depended on the pope's blessing. Getting papal approvement might qualify to a portrait of the type you posted. But it's merely guessing.

A third version shows him with a roll of paper in his hands:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:283Maximilian_I.jpg