Supportive Kirtle

[PrincessSara]

I've recently developed an intense interest in transitional Tudor styles.  I'm starting to plan my own ensemble, consisting of a chemise, two kirtles (as per Marie Cadieux's two-kirtle theory) and an overgown.  However, I'm still trying to figure out how they got the smooth, flat silhouette without corseting.  I don't think a corset would work under the styles without a waist seam because the edge would show through the dress.  So I'm trying to figure out to make a kirtle that would smooth out my figure, provide a little bir of squish, and support the bosom.  Particularly supporting the bosom, as it is not only unattractive to have an unsupported bust, it's also massively uncomfortable and downright painful for those of us who are further along in the alphabet.

I'm planning to make it out of a medium weight black linen and it will be side-lacing as per the images from Boccacce's De Mulieribus Claris and the fact that side lacing gives better squish in unboned garments.

[gem]

I'm interested to hear the responses to this, as well.  I was considering the same thing for my Promenade gown, which is circa 1500-1520, but I ultimately decided it was more trouble than it was worth (same issue you have; the fitting required is ridiculously complicated, particularly if you're doing it on yourself), and I'm going to make my life easier and just go with a corset.

When I was daydreaming about building a supportive layer, though, I was studying the kirtles in TUDOR TAILOR, and the work of Kimiko Small.

I've also read that other busty women have said they get better support from side-back lacing gowns than side-lacing ones, and that was another thing that changed my mind for me.

[Marietta Graziella]

What about breast taping?  There has been other discusion about this practice and, depending on how you wrap, it can still give you a smooth, flattened front.

[sealion]

I was going to suggest reading Kimiko Small's dress diaries but gem beat me to it! lol

[operafantomet]

What about breast taping?  There has been other discusion about this practice and, depending on how you wrap, it can still give you a smooth, flattened front.

I agree. As the same Marie Chantal Cadieux has shown, breast binding/taping gives a very good silhouette:
http://cadieux.mediumaevum.com/florentine.html

[PrincessSara]

Breast binding could work on holding up the bust, but I'd also like to generally smooth my shape out.  Could I achieve this through a tight-lacing kirtle?  Maybe using a stiff material for the underkirtle?  Perhaps I could do a long corded bodice (ie. to the hips instead of the natural waist, similar to the "corps" of earlier eras) or cord the torso of the underkirtle?  There will be another kirtle over it, so the cording shouldn't show through.  I was looking at Jen Thompson's diaries and she gets a very smooth effect with cording.  I know she used it for a short corset and not a whole bodice, but could the same principle be used here? 

I'll give the breast taping a try though and see how it works.

gem, I'm looking at making one of the Cluny-esque gowns too - that's where some of my inspiration for this is coming from.  I think under the ones with a waist seam you could do a "stiffened bodice" of sorts, as they stop just around the natural waist.  And the bottom edge of the corset wouldn't be visible because of the placement of the waist seam.

[operafantomet]

Are you thinking a kirtle with waistseam, or a "seamless" one? The latter might be hard to bone/stiffen, but the former should be easy enough. Hemp boning will give you a nice, supported torso, while at the same time allowing nice, round curves. Rigilene and cable ties should also work, being a bit stiffer but still flexible.

[gem]

Sara, have you seen this link?  It's a .pdf file documenting a recreation of a supportive kirtle with a waist seam:

http://www.mathildegirlgenius.com/Documentation/KASF2006/KirtleWithTrapezoids.pdf

[Meagan]

I didn't use any boning when I made my maternity gown. I am rather well endowed and I used a single layer of heavy duck cloth between a medium weight cotton I used for the dress. I didn't have any support problems and even had a decent bust line. It lasted well through two consecutive years pregnant at faire. The only problem I had was I didn't prewash the duck cloth so it shrank while the rest of the dress didn't. I was easily able to correct it, though. I think it works well for high waisted because you can get the garment tight enough to support without puckering. I don't know how well it would work for a full length garment though. The bust has a nice foundation of ribs to hold the material while the rest of the torso has a lot more squish. Maybe the weight of the skirts will help pull the fabric.

[gem]

Sara, I found another one that might be useful, from Katrina's Purple Files.  It's the wrong period (mid-Tudor), but the construction might be illuminating:

http://katerina.purplefiles.net/garb/diaries/Kat's_1st_Tudor_stiffening_Investigated.html

She's using a layer of buckram sandwiched between two layers of canvas.  I'm totally intrigued!  You can see there's a horizontal fold under her bust, but that could be taken care of by a couple of strategically placed bones.

[flidais]

I havn't tried making a Tudor gown yet, but can share what I've found while researching for one.

In The Tudor Tailor, the Henrician gown that she gives instructions to make, has a kirtle under it with a waist line.  Although Ninya does say to cut the bodice part so that it is shorter than you'd normally make a bodice.  So that it comes to just below your ribcage.  She shows it either heavily boned or left open.  In the instructions for the dress, the front of the bodice has a placard of canvas and a slightly boned forbody behind that.  If you can get ahold of this book, it is a good help.  Or I have heard that Margo Anderson is working on some Tudor patterns too.  Check out her blogspot or website for info on that.

Hmm sound like an advertisment there huh.  But really both those ladies are so talented, can't help but mention them. 

http://onetoughcostumer.blogspot.com/
and you can get to her website from there.  The stuff about the new tudor patterns is down at the bottom right now. 

[PrincessSara]

Thanks for all the links and info!

I've been reading Robin Netherton's Gothic Fitted Dress stuff and Tasha McGann's supportive kirtle.  I might try that method of fitting the dress on the body and just using structure to support things.

I've also realized I need to look at a lot more research about this era before I come up with a definitive plan.  Does anyone know where I can look at lots of period paintings/illuminations/etc.?  I tried the Web Gallery of Art, but most of it's late 15th century stuff is Italian.  I'm looking for De Mulieribus Claris, Le livres des echecs amoureux moralisee, Jardin de Deduit, Songe d'Evrard de Conty, 15th century books of hours, the 15th century version of La Roman de la Rose, etc.

Thanks!