Jewels on Tudor necklines

[gem]

(Ok, so Promenade is not technically Tudor, but the earlier Tudor gowns seem to be the closest analog to this odd style; plus, the other clothes in the tapestry have a very early-Tudor look to them)  I'm trying to decide what to do about the straps in Promenade:



For some reason, I had been thinking that the jewels/billament were applied to the red under-kirtle, not the black overgown, which left me feeling confused about what the straps of the black overgown should look like.  In Tudor Tailor, the billament is applied to the undergown.  I would *like* to do this, because it would add some interest to the red kirtle, which I also plan to wear by itself.  But then... where are the straps for the black gown?  Because they angle in so sharply toward the neck, unlike later styles (or gowns with sleeves), I'm not sure the very narrow overgown shoulder straps would work here.

This portrait of Katherine of Aragon appears to have the billament on an undergown, plus it has the angled-in straps (though at a much shallower angle)... but with the Mysterious White Band on her shoulders, it's hard to see what else is going on (sorry--didn't mean for this to turn into a discussion of the MWB.  I'm really interested in the shoulder treatment of the actual gown underneath it.)



Am I going to have to bite the bullet and put some sort of red strip of fabric along the black overgown neckline, and put the jewels on that?  In that case, I'll need to think of some other way to embellish the red kirtle....

Thoughts?  Musings?  Ideas?

Gramercy!!

[DonaCatalina]

I don't think that the 'straps' of the undergown are really straps at all.
The mysterious white bands on Tudor portaits appear to cover part of the shoulders of the gowns.
Interesting reading here.
Musings on the Tudor mysterious white band
In addition your 'poofs' at the top probably hide some of the shoulder, giving the impression of straps in the Promenade.

[operafantomet]

I agree with you, the first picture shows a style which can be seen as the predecessor of Tudor fashion. It's a sort of pan-European look occurring in France, Portugal, England and elsewhere, though of course not identical in all these countries.

Interestingly, it also corresponds with what was worn in Milan and surroundings in the late 15.th century. Milan was greatly influenced by the Hispanic peninsula (Spain, Portugal) at this time, so there's no wonder the style seems familiar. But it still might be helpful in sorting out the style you're heading for.

I think you're perfectly correct about the jewels/decorations being a part of the undergown/kirtle. This is at least what's seen elsewhere (Tudor style, Milan). Where the actual straps are...? Good question. It seems to me there's some white chemise fabric poking out at the shoulders, and that the sleeves are tied on. Can it be that the dark straps are hidden under there?

Comparing the first picture you posted with some Milanese portraits, there are some similar features: first and foremost, the coazzone (roll of hair) and trinzale (small cap on the backhead), held in place with a lenza, a band crossing the forehead. At least I think that's what she's wearing. It might be interpreted as a very early version of the french hood as well, but that wouldn't explain the black band crossing the forehead, while it corresponds so well with the Spanish/Milanese style.

Second, the tied-on sleeves with lots of chemise poking out, and the kirtle with a decorating edge also seems familiar. It's of course not wildly original, as much of the European fashion had these features, but I still think it reminds of eachother. Look at these portraits, and you'll see what I mean:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/milano/beatricedeste2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/milano/belleferroniere.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/milano/depredisbms1493.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/milano/beatrice_ribbons.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/milano/milanese1480-90savoy.jpg

As usual, I managed to twist this into Italian renaissance fashion... Forgive me... But I suddenly saw a corresponding style in those two depictions, I just had to point it out...

[ladyharrogate]

I'd have to go with the same conclusion as the article that was mentioned.  Maybe they were just a decoration, kind of a forerunner or variation on a partlet.  What are you thinking of using for your jewels or have you jeweled it already?  I'm always curious.

[operafantomet]

I'd have to go with the same conclusion as the article that was mentioned.  Maybe they were just a decoration, kind of a forerunner or variation on a partlet.  What are you thinking of using for your jewels or have you jeweled it already?  I'm always curious.

You know, a Florentine portrait shows the same kind of random "shawl", only in black - the lovely Ginevra de Benci portrait by Leonardo:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze1/ginevradebenci.jpg

But because of the angle of the sitter and the square, wide neck opening, you can clearly see it's going behind her neck like a shawl. I don't know if the same applies for the early Turod portraits, but they do remind me of eachother.

(see, back at Italian stuff already... )

[ladyharrogate]

I agree, it could be a shawl.  in bridal and prom there was a trend for awhile where girls would lay their wrap over their shoulders then pull the ends around their front armhole, under the arm and tie it in the back.  Just a thought, so much of figuring out these portraits is speculation based on historical knowledge. 

[gem]

Thanks, everyone.  I actually don't care about the Mysterious White Band, since it's NOT an element of Promenade; I only brought it up because it's covering the part of Katherine of Aragon's gown/s that I really need to see! 

I don't think that the 'straps' of the undergown are really straps at all.

Dona C, can you elaborate on this?  If they're not straps, what are they?  As Operafan pointed out, the gown has tied-on (not set-in) sleeves, so if not straps, then what?  I've read the MWB article several times before, but it's always good to look at the images with fresh eyes.

Operafan, thanks for those images!  I have been having trouble finding pictorial evidence of Italianate French fashion for the period to compare to (which is why I've been falling back on Tudor images).  But thank you *particularly* for the terms for the headpiece!!  I've not been able to find anything similar, and this will give me something to go on.  Huzzah!

I think you're perfectly correct about the jewels/decorations being a part of the undergown/kirtle.

I *want* to think so, too (and will happily use any evidence in support of that conclusion! LOL), but if you look closely--particularly under her right arm (left side of the picture), you see the red continues around the side of the bodice, where you'd *think* part of the black overgown would *have* to come up.  Unless the black is *strapless,* which I think can be summarily dismissed as unlikely.

I think I'm going to have to fiddle with the neckline a little until something looks right--make the strap angle a little wider, probably (she's sort of hunching her shoulders anyway, which would push the straps inward on her neck), in order to make room for a narrower black strap... and then artfully arrange the "poofs" of chemise at the shoulder.

[DonaCatalina]

I don't think that the 'straps' of the undergown are really straps at all.
The mysterious white bands on Tudor portaits appear to cover part of the shoulders of the gowns.
Interesting reading here.
Musings on the Tudor mysterious white band
In addition your 'poofs' at the top probably hide some of the shoulder, giving the impression of straps in the Promenade.

What appears to be straps may actually be complete shoulder pieces. If you read the article on the mysterious white band, it doesn't seem to serve any purpose, but it does cover up quite a bit of the fabric on the shoulders and underarm area.
So where the sleeves tie on may be a bit more fabric than first look suggests.
This makes it appear to be a transitional style between the  gowns in the DaVinci paintings and the 1535 Tudor styles.

[Cilean]

Okay

Here I am again!

Ouche places to purchase!
http://www.sapphireandsage.com/ouches.html

http://www.pewterreplicas.com/detail.asp?id=158&selcurrencies=GBP

I made some myself, but getting the buttons would be hard now, I bought them like 5 years ago. I took out the obviously Victorian inside and put in a purple stone thing.

But you can look about for buttons you can use as well.

Good Luck

Cilean