So I was wondering what you thought of ......

[Dracconia]

this new Health Bill they are trying to pass, I am reading about it and reading the CBO's summary, but I was wondering what you fine people thought...so shall we discuss....or am I just really this nerdy?

[Leyla]

Bet this one gets shut down for being political pretty fast.

That saying, socialized medicine has FAILED everywhere it's been tried. Name one thing that the government has managed to run better than the private sector... and you want them responsible for your healthcare? 

This bill is a baaaaaad idea.

[Zaubon]

Politically I'm a libertarian so I don't believe the government should be doing anything beyond the bare minimum of responding to aggression (police) and providing a forum for settling disputes (courts).
That said, I'll fall back on cliches. The postal service is probably the most effective government program. Do you want the Post Office delivering your medical care? How about them deciding what medical care you get?
I currently ration my medical care through placing a dollar value of what I'm willing to spend on my health care. I put up with some inconveniences like eczema, and have funds put back for truly debilitating injuries and illness.

[Tipsy Gypsy]

Nope, nope, nope! I have a dear friend in Canada who's a vicitm of socialized medical "care". She has multiple chemical sensitivities that keep her virtually imprisoned in her own home. She pays a staggering amount of taxes so the govenment can fund "free" healthcare out of her pocket, and for this, she has to wait weeks even for a routine visit to her doctor. Lord help her when her symptom flare up and she's in distress. Thanks but no thanks.

FWIW, it's already been tried in the US, on a smaller scale. The built-in abuse escalated so rapidly that it failed in only 7 months. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/17/health/main4527996.shtml

[Grov]

I'll only say that those who don't learn from history are destined to repeated the same mistakes.  Socialism has failed in ever facet in the past. Just because a charismatic gentleman in our highest office says it'll work doesn't make it so.  Same with the Stimulus package.

[Seamus Ex Machina]

Right you are, TG....Could it work...?   Possibly.  The downside would be rationing other gummint services, and those that already have a piece of that action (ie.."entitlements...)   will squall like hungry little piglets.  Maybe we could downsize the worlds most professional armed services...?   Park a few nuclear carriers,  send a few hundred thousand soldiers home, close some more bases that provide jobs for entire communities....?   But there is the problem;  the Constitution provides for the common defense.   There's not a single thing about health care.  

On the other hand....the system is broken.  Insurance companies and lawyers write the rules that doctors and patients are obliged to follow.    There has to be a better way to do this......I can tell you first hand that losing your health insurance is no bloody picnic.  But more government intervention has always been a recipe for disaster.  I could not have put it better than Zaubon did....having the postal service running the medical system?   Really?    How about that miserable SOB you almost choked out the last time you visited the DMV?

To say nothing of the potential for abuse...if you were furious with welfare that went five generations deep, you'll just love this...

For the record, I claim no political party affiliation.  Both parties have lost sight of anything more important than the next election cycle.  

[Tipsy Gypsy]

The gov't. trying to run what should be private, even when it founders, has never been a good idea... anybody remember Amtrak? Yeah, that went well.

[Noble Dreg]

Nope, nope, nope! I have a dear friend in Canada who's a vicitm of socialized medical "care".

Canada ranked 10th in the world for longevity...USA ranked 45th.

Canada ranked 23rd for infant mortality...USA 33rd.

No opinion expressed on the plan, just some numbers for thought.

[Breandan]

the US also has ten times the population (300 million vs. 33 million) and far higher percentages of recent immigrants with congenital problems from their homelands and/or who still live in austere conditions by choice (trust me, I see it every day). Not to mention many of them choose not to seek medical help due to culture or suspicions. I see Hispanics with medical problems going to a Curandera for some ritual or other rather than the hospital all the time, and many other groups do the same- Chinese, Haitian, etc.- while others do not trust hospitals at all and tend to try to treat injuries on their own (especially prideful country boys... hate trying to treat them when they get injured, too stubborn to admit what's wrong and want to fix it with superglue or a stapler). Not knocking it, it's their traditions, but it does skew the numbers significantly. I cannot tell you how many times people have refused treatment when in dired need of proper medical care. Add to that the generally risky lifestyles of most Americans in their teens and twenties, higher concentrations of populations in small geographical areas (cities and megacities) and all that comes with it (exponentially increased rates of violent crime, disease, accidents, etc.) and it skews them even further.

As for the healthcare bill, I'm pretty much in the same boat as Zaubon on this one.

[Noble Dreg]

...Do you want the Post Office delivering your medical care?...

Yes actually.  Seems as much as many here malign and disparage our government they tend to forget what government made us what we are.  I can pay less than four-bits and have a letter picked up at my house and delivered ANYWHERE in the country in about three days with near 100% accuracy.  Gotta give cred where it's due.

My government leaders in the pentagon have done what no other country in modern times has done.  Defeated despots bent on world domination.  Saved most of the free world (and saved much of the not so free).  And did it without the annexation on any other country.

Government got us to the moon.  Built one of the worlds largest road infrastructures.  Educates millions with free and unbiased education.  Cares for millions more in their retirement.

Seems that big bureaucracy does pretty danged well with much.  I am proud of my nation and it's people.  I realise the people ARE the government and I do not fear them trying to improve our lives and position in the world.  Much to like in the new bill and much to hate.  That is why I vote for my congressmen to make sure they get it right.  Lord knows they make mistakes, as do I, but I will give them a chance.  The fact the bill is faultering says they are indeed doing their homework and trying to make it right.

[Dracconia]

I thought that since this is one of the few places where people can express different, even opposing issues without fear of being drug through the mud. If I offended anyone by posting a political topic I apologize, I just thought it would make for good discussion. And so far it has in the respectable way I have come to love and expect from this community of folks!

My thoughts are that, so far what I've read sounds good. I know that there are going to be some sacrifices, and that not everyone is going to be happy, but that's life. But if we are required to have a base amount of health care...don't you think that it would go a long way to reduce the amount of unpaid ER bills we have in this country? (and we have alot!)

Idk, once again I apologize if you were offended by the political content of the post.

[Grov]

...Do you want the Post Office delivering your medical care?...

Yes actually.  Seems as much as many here malign and disparage our government they tend to forget what government made us what we are.  I can pay less than four-bits and have a letter picked up at my house and delivered ANYWHERE in the country in about three days with near 100% accuracy.  Gotta give cred where it's due.

My government leaders in the pentagon have done what no other country in modern times has done.  Defeated despots bent on world domination.  Saved most of the free world (and saved much of the not so free).  And did it without the annexation on any other country.

Government got us to the moon.  Built one of the worlds largest road infrastructures.  Educates millions with free and unbiased education.  Cares for millions more in their retirement.

Seems that big bureaucracy does pretty danged well with much.  I am proud of my nation and it's people.  I realise the people ARE the government and I do not fear them trying to improve our lives and position in the world.  Much to like in the new bill and much to hate.  That is why I vote for my congressmen to make sure they get it right.  Lord knows they make mistakes, as do I, but I will give them a chance.  The fact the bill is faultering says they are indeed doing their homework and trying to make it right.

I'll agree that we, as a country, have done great things but I would attribute these successes to people rather than the government machine.  Regardless of which party held the reins.  Government mismanagement is legendary.  I firmly don't think the government should or can successfully operate in the private sector.  For example, they couldn't succeed in a business selling sex and booze. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,292166,00.html  What's happening now seems to be a push for more machine and less people.  Not fond of the trend.  Not fond to the point where I can't even fathom the real purpose behind the decisions that are being made.  There has to be some ulterior motive because all of the major changes we have seen seem to be having the direct opposite of the desired results. 

[maelstrom0370]

**Squeezes eyes shut tight, sticks fingers in ears**
Not gonna get involved, Not gonna get involved, Not gonna get......

Ahhhh....nuts!

Ok...
First, and foremost, I'm glad to see this discussion staying away from the dogma of "Socialism is Evil!"  Police, Fire, Education (to a point), the roads you drive on, the military that defends you....all Socialism.  It's something provided for by the community for the good of the community.

Second...I love the idea of socialized health care...in theory.  Putting it into practice would require fixing far too many things than the next 4 presidents would have time for.    Not the least of which is an overblown sense of entitlement too many people seem to have, and an illegal immigration problem that's absolutely staggering.  Do I have a problem with immigration? No, sir! Do I have a problem with illegal immigration? You bet yer sweet bippy!

Third...Do you really like the idea of an insurance company, who gets paid more for giving you less, making you and your families health care decisions?  My doctor can say I need something, but my insurance company can say no?  What am I paying them for?  There's a part in the Nixon/Watergate tapes about HMO's that's pretty darn telling.  And before we get into the "wait lists" portion of this conversation, I know a few people abroad, and I've asked them what they think of their health care, and from what I can tell, elective and cosmetic surgeries can be wait listed for awhile.  Required or necessary surgeries? Not so much.  LOL, and I'm sure someone else could have talked to friends in other countries and heard the opposite.  

And last, I think we can agree that the private sector doesn't have much on the Gov't when it comes to running a business.  I'm lookin' at you, GM and Enron!

[Sir Ironhead]

...Do you want the Post Office delivering your medical care?...

Yes actually.  Seems as much as many here malign and disparage our government they tend to forget what government made us what we are.  I can pay less than four-bits and have a letter picked up at my house and delivered ANYWHERE in the country in about three days with near 100% accuracy.  Gotta give cred where it's due.

When it comes to medical care, almost ain't good enough.  I want 100% accuracy

  ...Educates millions with free and unbiased education.

Are you kidding me?  Public education has been unbelieveably biased since the mid '70s.

  ...Cares for millions more in their retirement.

FDR never intended Social Security to be a retirement plan, it was money to use when you can't work until you can.  It is in the New Deal that FDR inflicted on the country that extended the Great depression for nearly 10 years

Seems that big bureaucracy does pretty danged well with much.  I am proud of my nation and it's people.  I realise the people ARE the government and I do not fear them trying to improve our lives and position in the world.  Much to like in the new bill and much to hate.  That is why I vote for my congressmen to make sure they get it right.  Lord knows they make mistakes, as do I, but I will give them a chance.  The fact the bill is faultering says they are indeed doing their homework and trying to make it right.

This nation prospers in spite of bureaucracy, not because of it, more or bigger government has NEVER been the answer to ANYTHING.  The bill is faltering?  That implies that it worked.  Never did and never was intended to.  But that's what happens when you don't read what you are signing.

[Noble Dreg]

Well put MaelStrom, well put indeed.

Now pull your fingers outa your ears and go back to eating that turkey leg! (God I hope that is a turkey leg!)