Is Pink H/A?

[operafantomet]

I'm sorry.. I just wanted to add my two cents here...I still see none of the examples as "Pink" as we know it. Perhaps that is why I can't wrap my head around it. They are more red to me. And yes, I read the post about how there were different types of red and such. But in my head its the "Paint fades over time" theory. *Shrugs*

I just can't wrap my head around it. :/

I'm starting to think it might be your monitor and the way it displays colours. Cause as well as the ones DonaCatilina posted, these are pink allright:



Hot pinks can be more difficult to separate from bright reds, though. Where do pink end and red start? And what about salmon shades? Even in modern garb it can be hard to separate. But if the portraits above don't correspond to "pink as we know it", could you link to some modern garbs in pink? Just so I see what you mean?

Also, one of the portraits in the link in my previous entry... I don't manage to see it as any other colour than pink. Hot pink!

[isabelladangelo]

I'm sorry.. I just wanted to add my two cents here...I still see none of the examples as "Pink" as we know it. Perhaps that is why I can't wrap my head around it. They are more red to me. And yes, I read the post about how there were different types of red and such. But in my head its the "Paint fades over time" theory. *Shrugs*

I just can't wrap my head around it. :/

http://www.renaissancefestival.com/forums/index.php?topic=15207.0

Linking since there is more pink discussion over there.

Is there a reason you are having trouble with the pink/red thing?
Here is a painting from 1495 with Salmon pink and red right next to each other  I prefer posting ones where pink and red are shown together to remove any doubt of this "faded" theory.  I really don't get why this Renn Fairism is still around other than some now it all that never once cracked open a painting book or played with dyes declared it and everyone believed it. 

I showed in the previous thread that pink and red have existed in harmony from at least the 1100s and I could easily go back to Ancient Egypt (I saw some of those in person and talk about VIBRANT!).  However, being as this is a Renaissance thread, I think some illuminations (which are less subject to fading since they are typically in a book and not hanging on a wall):

http://www.wga.hu/art/g/girolamo/cremona/pentecos.jpg  There are some lovely burgundies and pinks in this Pentecost illumination from the 1460s

http://www.wga.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1501-550/2misc/04b_1500.jpg This one has orangy reds, pinks, and a brick red border.  It's from about 1500

http://www.wga.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1451-500/2netherl/13n_1450.jpg Pink flowers and red strawberries!

http://www.wga.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1451-500/2netherl/14n_1450.jpg Red, wine, pink all in this illumination from about the 1450s.

http://www.wga.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1451-500/21griman/04months.jpg The month of April from about 1490, showing pink, red, and a few hundred other gorgeous colors.

http://www.wga.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1451-500/21griman/08months.jpg The month of August.  If you look at the guy to the far most right, you'll see he has a pink hood and is wearing a red hat!

So, no, it's not just fading.  It's very clearly a true color and always has been.   I can easily add more or I can even point out paintings, or other time periods.   Honestly, I just want to be very clear and kill this ridiculous renn fair myth that pink didn't exist.

[Devangelon]

Alright, fine. I'll take that its historically accurate. But I'm not sure I could ever feel good about making a pink dress for faire.

Now, I have an interesting question..

We've all heard the "Purple is for Royalty only" rule. And I know how the dye was made (Fermenting sea snails) but did any royals actually wear it in the renaissance? I ask because there was a visiting kingdom at one of my faires this year. Well, not visiting, but they had new garb. And it was purple and gold. And I'm not saying a nice plum. But PURPLE. Like..Minnesota Vikings purple. Was that period and if so, are there any portraits of it?

[Syrilla]

Ah, another can of worms. 

Purple for Royalty is a fair-ism also.  Because we are trained from childhood that it is so.  However it is based on a truth, in that it was Very expensive to create the crimson/purple, so only the very wealthy could afford it.  Also, sumptuary laws would create more stress on the person wanting to wear it, as there was a "fine". 

With that being said, it is not difficult to create a lavender, or other pale "purple", from natural ingredients.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69B7DWEKANY  Here is an example of how it was made.  Plus it's a great show.

[operafantomet]

Alright, fine. I'll take that its historically accurate. But I'm not sure I could ever feel good about making a pink dress for faire.

That's two different discussions, though. I understand it's hard to get used to the thought when faires has always taught us that pink is not period. But both written and pictorial sources contradicts it.

We've all heard the "Purple is for Royalty only" rule. And I know how the dye was made (Fermenting sea snails) but did any royals actually wear it in the renaissance? I ask because there was a visiting kingdom at one of my faires this year. Well, not visiting, but they had new garb. And it was purple and gold. And I'm not saying a nice plum. But PURPLE. Like..Minnesota Vikings purple. Was that period and if so, are there any portraits of it?

The jury is still out on that one... Ha-ha! Again it comes down to the dye used. Fabrics mostly got their colour name from the dye used, and not from what colour people saw. Red was not limited to nobility in 1560s Florence, for example, but crimson was. Crimson was an expensive red dye, and because of this it was limited to the nobility. All who could afford it wore red, but only the very upper class wore crimson red. See the difference?

To some degree the same applies for purple shades. However, the purple shades are hard to produce, a lot harder than red shades, and was even more expensive than crimson. From Byzantine time porfyra (=purple) had been used by emperors and popes, and it remained expensive until the synthetic dyes were invented in the mid 19th century. Then the use of PURPLE and other bright colours exploded. From pictoral sources the Byzantine purple is a bit more red in appearance than the modern equivalent:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Justinian.jpg

But the Renaissance artist Botticelli has depicted a man in what I consider "modern purple" (I.E. more blue) in one of his illustrations of Dante's "Divina Commedia". It's the same man repeated, as he and Dante moves around in Inferno to see the punishments of "panderers and seducers and flatterers". I think he is to represent Virgil, but his purple cloak and tall hat is very un-Roman. Probably some symbolism I'm not getting there.
http://www.lib-art.com/imgpainting/8/7/7478-inferno-canto-xviii-sandro-botticelli.jpg

So purple did indeed exist in both its modern version and a more antique version. And as you suggest, it was reserved for the richest of the richest. Which I'm sure Gloriana would consider herself!

Here's more on the discussion of purple, which has been quite active at this board previously:
http://www.renaissancefestival.com/forums/index.php?topic=3773.0

[isabelladangelo]

Purple is interesting because, what we call purple and what they called purple are two different things.   We mix up Violet and Purple all the time and no one seems to notice.  You wouldn't have done that in the Middle Ages/Renaissance.   Their purple was the color of blood as it's drying because -well- that's what it was!  We'd consider a maroon or a darkish red with a hint of purple -not a true purple (to us).  

Violet was made using good old red and blue dyes together.   One of the problems with the internet is that many of the paintings that do have violet in them (or even lavendar or any other shade of purple) come out as black or brown on monitors.  There are colors in the museums that just look funny on the computer.  

That being said, yes, there certainly was purple/violet.  People did wear it.  The "royal purple" was restricted more so in England than elsewhere.  However, as Syrilla said, just pay the fine if you wear it.


In this picture you can see several linen and wool threads dyed purple using methods and materials in the 12th -14th centuries.  One right of center.  

Some illuminations showing what we think of as purple:

http://www.wga.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1451-500/5other/01a_1454.jpg - The priest with Mary and Jesus is wearing lavender and gold

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Les_Tr%C3%A8s_Riches_Heures_du_duc_de_Berry_septembre.jpg - the lady that looks like she is wearing gray is actually wearing the same color as the grapes she's putting into a basket.  There is also the lady with the mulberry hood that is a neat mix of red and purple and almost matches the grapes.

http://www.wga.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1401-450/2italian/01i_1400.jpg -> Although the lady on the right looks like she is wearing gray, it's probably really a lovely lavender.

http://www.wga.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1401-450/2italian/03i_1400.jpg -> The gentleman in the tower has a lavender cloak on.

And, for extant garments:
http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/workbox/extcam1.htm

[Muffin]

Having not completely read through this thread, and not looking to ruffle any feathers, I'll just throw my 2 cents in...

Who the heck cares if its HA or not besides the garb nazis who will snub your garb anyways?  If you like it, do it!!

Pink is my favorite color, and I just commissioned a new irish dress for faire in a beautiful raspberry color fabric! Is it HA? Absolutely not, but I could care less!! I like it, and will feel good wearing it!! Its all about the fun!

Cheers!! and back to your regularly scheduled sewing discussion!!



*Hey Sitara, you want to sing your "I hate pink" song for them?* LOL! 

[isabelladangelo]

Having not completely read through this thread, and not looking to ruffle any feathers, I'll just throw my 2 cents in...

Who the heck cares if its HA or not besides the garb nazis who will snub your garb anyways?  If you like it, do it!!

The problem with this mentality is we get the chain mail bikini being worn by someone who I am sure is older than my mother and weighs about 50 pounds more than myself.   Also, "nazis" killed millions of people - I have yet to hear of the fashion police in this country doing the same.  Choose words carefully. 

[Muffin]

Its just a figure of speech, and a common one at that when referring to garb "snubbers".. Sorry that it offended you.. I will refrain from using said term in your presence.

I've seen the chainmail bikinis and such, and still say who cares.. It's not hurting anyone, and if they look in the mirror and say "GD I look good" then so be it.. They chose to wear it, and do not need anyones permission nor should they worry about who they are impressing or not impressing so to speak.  Do I think they look ridiculous and should make other choices, probably, but still, who is it hurting? In my opinion, faire is supposed to be about having fun, and if that enhances thier fun, well then Hooray!

Again, wasn't looking to offend, just stating what I thought about wearing pink at faire..   

moving on....

[Kate]

Having not completely read through this thread, and not looking to ruffle any feathers, I'll just throw my 2 cents in...

Who the heck cares if its HA or not besides the garb nazis who will snub your garb anyways?  If you like it, do it!!

Pink is my favorite color, and I just commissioned a new irish dress for faire in a beautiful raspberry color fabric! Is it HA? Absolutely not, but I could care less!! I like it, and will feel good wearing it!! Its all about the fun!

Cheers!! and back to your regularly scheduled sewing discussion!!



*Hey Sitara, you want to sing your "I hate pink" song for them?* LOL! 

I LOVE this comment! When people say I'm not historically accurate my general response is 'Your face isn't historically accurate."  Childish? Maybe. Fun? HECK yes.

[Muffin]

Having not completely read through this thread, and not looking to ruffle any feathers, I'll just throw my 2 cents in...

Who the heck cares if its HA or not besides the garb nazis who will snub your garb anyways?  If you like it, do it!!

Pink is my favorite color, and I just commissioned a new irish dress for faire in a beautiful raspberry color fabric! Is it HA? Absolutely not, but I could care less!! I like it, and will feel good wearing it!! Its all about the fun!

Cheers!! and back to your regularly scheduled sewing discussion!!



*Hey Sitara, you want to sing your "I hate pink" song for them?* LOL! 

I LOVE this comment! When people say I'm not historically accurate my general response is 'Your face isn't historically accurate."  Childish? Maybe. Fun? HECK yes.

[DonaCatalina]

The whole point of this thread was to dispel the myth that Pink was not historically accurate.
There are some people who are expected to meet a reasonable degree of accuracy such as cast and the like. This is their ammunition if they choose to use pink in their garb.

[operafantomet]

Pink is my favorite color, and I just commissioned a new irish dress for faire in a beautiful raspberry color fabric! Is it HA? Absolutely not, but I could care less!!

Why would it not be historically accurate? Because Irish women didn't wear raspberry red? Or because the Irish dress is not historically accurate? Cause the colour itself existed.


ETA: how COULD I forget one of my favourite pink ladies, from the Villa Foscari on mainland Venice! She's super funky.

[Muffin]

No, because it is being sewn on a modern sewing machine, and I am quite sure the pattern is not HA... 

but it's pretty!!! 

[DonaCatalina]

Back to our regular sewing discussion...
I love these gorgeous medieval dresses; but you have to have one of those willowy figures to look good in them.
Both red and pink clothing pictured for contrast.