Corset under Bodice

[Alexandra Johanna]

I have a new admiration for renaissance women after trying on my garb with a corset underneath it all!  I bought a professionally made bodice this weekend at faire, was measured in the shop, and tried on two sizes before settling on the smaller of the two. Being a plus size pear shape, I already have quite a bit of fluff and hippy-ness. The bodice fits well, but of course, the lower abdomen squish is an issue. So  after a quick scan of the internet, I came upon the Very Merry Seamstress' page where she explains that wearing a corset beneath a bodice was historically accurate and can lengthen the life of the bodice by reducing strain. I just so happen to have a steel boned, underbust corset of very good construction. So I figured I would give it a go.

Great Googly-Moogly! How did renaissance women wear all this?  I had on the underbust corset, cinched snug but not as far as it could have gone, an Irish leine half chemise, two cotton skirts, and the bodice. I cannot imagine trying to wear this for a full day in summer heat. I will say that the shape it gave was wonderful, no more poochy squish and quite the "heaving bosom"!

So Ladies, my question is... How many of the historically accurate folk do indeed wear a corset beneath your outermost layers? I do love the shape it gives, but dear lord, the restriction of movement is a worry!

[isabelladangelo]

You wouldn't wear a bodice over a pair of stays - the bodice IS the stays.  Instead, you'd wear a gown over the stays.  Stays were worn beneath a gown in the Renaissance - but only after about 1530.   A kirtle was worn before that in England.   A peasant would have worn just the stays most of the time.  

Stays were stiffened with reed or whalebone or even cardboard.  They covered the bust.   The shape the stays gave also a VERY different shape of the Victorian corset.   You are looking for a conical shape.

It sounds like the bodice you have wasn't stiffened well enough for your shape.   Does it have any boning whatsoever?   I personally like duct ties for my stays and bodices - they work wonders.   You might be able to take the bodice apart a bit and add some channels and boning to it to help with the issues you are having.  

For more information:
http://www.elizabethancostume.net/corsets/history.html

Her research is awesome.  :-)

For me, it depends on the class and period I'm re-enacting.  The Italians didn't bother with stays most of the time - it was too hot for that many layers!   The English did and I'll happily wear my stays - they are super comfy- with a skirt and an overdress. 

cc29mecloseup by jubileel_insaneone, on Flickr

The stays are heavily boned (with duct ties) in the front and interlined with buckram.   In the winter, I plan on making a velvet gown to go over these stays with a new forepart and sleeves.   What time of year it is also has a lot to do with how many layers one is wearing.

   
I hope this makes sense now!

[Alexandra Johanna]

Interesting read. Thanks for the link!

I suspect the problem I am having is similar to that mentioned by FortuneRose in this post:

http://www.renaissancefestival.com/forums/index.php?topic=17163.0

The majority of my fluff is in the abdomen, so wearing a bodice that ends at the natural waist tends to squish that abdomen fat lower into a more pronounced pooch beneath the bodice. The skirts disguise this somewhat, but not enough for my liking.  The bodice I purchased does have very stiff boning, three channels on each side in the front, and does provide support and lift. It's just that poochy lower fat that I'm concerned with.

The underbust corset I have has a lower edge that comes to more of a point over this area and keeps everything flat and tucked in. It doesn't give an hourglass figure, but rather keeps the front line nice and smooth. When I make my next bodice, I think I will try using my professionally made bodice as a template and just experiment with cutting the front lower into a more pointed shape to assist with this area, such as the Moresca pirate bodice shape. Our local faire does not have a Moresca shop for me to try one on, and all the bodices I did look at at our shops are cut much the same, fairly straight across the front and back with a curved allowance at the hips and ending at the natural waist.

The information I saw about a corset under a bodice was mentioned here on the Very Merry Seamstress site:

http://www.verymerryseamstress.com/bodices.htm

[isabelladangelo]

Yes, it sounds like elongating the front of a bodice would help you.  I'd actually make it all around longer.  I have a long torso and a normal bodice ends too short on me.  It needs an extra inch or two in length to fit me correctly - you may want to try that as well.  You may also want to look into a pair of stays with tabs.  It might help soften the transition from the waist to the hips. 

[Lady Renee Buchanan]

Soulstice, if you are using Bristol as your home faire, it no longer has a Moresca shop there.  There used to be one, but it closed several years ago.  If you have another faire that's your home faire, and they have Moresca, you're lucky!  I love their bodices.  The Cleo bodices also come to a point in the front and cover the fluff.  I have 2 of them, and also a Max 2.  I wish they were still at Bristol.  Though I'd be broke......

[Alexandra Johanna]

Yes, Bristol is my home faire, and the only one I've ever been to. We checked most of the shops this past weekend and looked at their bodices. Those that had anything plus size in stock did not have a style that was flattering to lower fluff, for lack of a better word, LOL. I did get a bodice from Felix Needleworthy that I love, and will likely use as a template to adapt to a more pointed front like the Moresca pirate style.

If Moresca and Windwalker would come back to Bristol, I would be a happy, albeit broke, girl!

[operafantomet]

I have a new admiration for renaissance women after trying on my garb with a corset underneath it all!  I bought a professionally made bodice this weekend at faire, was measured in the shop, and tried on two sizes before settling on the smaller of the two. Being a plus size pear shape, I already have quite a bit of fluff and hippy-ness. The bodice fits well, but of course, the lower abdomen squish is an issue. So  after a quick scan of the internet, I came upon the Very Merry Seamstress' page where she explains that wearing a corset beneath a bodice was historically accurate and can lengthen the life of the bodice by reducing strain. I just so happen to have a steel boned, underbust corset of very good construction. So I figured I would give it a go.

Great Googly-Moogly! How did renaissance women wear all this?  I had on the underbust corset, cinched snug but not as far as it could have gone, an Irish leine half chemise, two cotton skirts, and the bodice. I cannot imagine trying to wear this for a full day in summer heat. I will say that the shape it gave was wonderful, no more poochy squish and quite the "heaving bosom"!

So Ladies, my question is... How many of the historically accurate folk do indeed wear a corset beneath your outermost layers? I do love the shape it gives, but dear lord, the restriction of movement is a worry!

I do Italian style, and there corsets/stays were not done until the very end of the 16th century. Before that they stiffened the actual bodice, so THAT kinda functioned as the corset. Alternately they wore a dress with a stiffened bodice under a dress with looser lines. In general I think that is the trick - either you wear a stiff corset/bodice and a "loose" bodice over it, or you wear a stiffened bodice and no corset. Think of the stiffened bodice as a corset with skirt!

I wrote an article about it some years ago:
http://aneafiles.webs.com/renaissancegallery/stays.html

The level of stiffening I add to a bodice varies. The bodices of my High Renaissance dresses are made of two layers of linen or cotton, with hemp cord boning, interlining, and the fancy fabric. This gives sturdy, but shapeable bodices:
http://aneafiles.webs.com/unicorn.html
http://aneafiles.webs.com/raphael.html


My mid 16th century dresses have bodices stiffened with rigilene (synthetic whalebones). I also tried cable ties, which are narrower and stiffer. These bodices are stiffer:
http://aneafiles.webs.com/bronzino.html
http://aneafiles.webs.com/peacock.html
http://aneafiles.webs.com/venetian.html


When I have the time (and money) I want to experiment with stiffening as described in that article - using linen cardboard, interlining and/or padding. I've seen online costume friends do it with great result.

I think Very Merry Seamstress is right about a corset lengthening the life of a dress bodice. It avoids straining in the bodice, and it protects it from sweat and such. But stiffening the actual bodice, almost to the level of a corset, and wearing a washable chemise underneath, does much of the same. And for many styles and decades it's even more historically accurate than a separate stiff corset under the dress.

Hope I didn't just confuse you further...  

[DonaCatalina]

I wear Spanish early Imperial styles. I wear a corset with a long front point under my dresses.There are several of my projects for myself and others on page 1 of this thread.
http://www.renaissancefestival.com/forums/index.php?topic=89.0
My corset is boned with steel with a wide busk in the front. So that helps a lot with the tummy pooch caused by short waisted bodices and corsets.

I also wear chemise and a full gown.
I admit that I fake the underdress with a skirt and removeable sleeves. Part of being able to wear it is acclimating yourself to it; starting out when the weather is cooler.
But look at very merry seamstress's corsets and Sofi's corsets for the shape you need.

[arbcoind]

As a non HA wench, I prefer a well bonded bodice to a corset underneath a lesser bonded bodice.  I find it to be more comfortable in the heat and in freedom of movement.  And it's one less step in the dressing order of undergarments, chemise, skirt (or two), bodice, then accessories.  I too am a plus size with a "fluffy" belly.  If you can get your hands on one, buy a Moresca bodice.   It will smooth your belly fluff and give the girls a nice lift.  I have two Moresca pirate bodices, they are wonderful !!

Gina

[Lady Kathleen of Olmsted]

Being that my faire Character is an Upper Noble shy of a Duchess, I have always worn a period correct corset under my Bodices. It is what gives the "profile".

The corset also takes the stress so that the Bodice does not have to.  I do  boning in all the Bodices I make for gown ensembles to keep Bodices from looking wrinkled and out of shape.

[Alexandra Johanna]

Lots of great information, thank you all!