Burda/German patterns & Saxon/Cranach gown discussion

[gem]

I found a really good Cranach gown diary with some interesting discussion of bodice construction and support. Philippa's Wardrobe. I also like how she made her skirt.

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I have been trying to find information on the construction of the puff-and-slash sleeves, and I'm not coming up with much. (Frex, are they panes, as shown in the Burda pattern? Or slits in sleeves that have been drawn up to puff out? Or something else?)

Does anyone have experience with the Period Patterns German gown pattern?



It's so hard to see what's going on in that line drawing....

[mollymishap]

snip...

Oh, and one last note--you may come across in your reading some theories about these gowns only being "appropriate" for slim figures. Pshaw!! Regardless of what Cranach depicted, there are gads of gorgeous costumers of all sizes making and wearing them.

I made a doll outfit a few years back modelled after a Cranach portrait and at the time I remember reading the theory that the style is more of a "juniors" or youthful style.  IIRC, the author (I don't recall where I read it) used this painting as support for their theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lucas_Cranach_d._%C3%84._007.jpg  .  I guess youthfulness & slimness do go hand in hand, but even if it were highly documented to be the case, who cares?  I'm pushing 50 and it wouldn't stop me from making/wearing one if I had a mind to.

[mellingera]

Reconstructing History has a Saxon (Cranach) Gown pattern as well.
http://store.reconstructinghistory.com/rh501-saxon-cranach-gown.html

Toward the end of the dress diary Gem mentioned, the writer mention she had used the Period Patterns pattern, but had heard really good things about the Reconstructing History one. The more I look at the work required to make the Burda pattern into something resembling what it should, the more I think it worth trying the Reconstructing History pattern instead. I've never used their patterns before, suggestions/comments/concerns? I've never used anything from them.

[gem]

I have serious reservations about the RH patterns. First, her research theories for this particular type of gown are questionable (IMO), her customer service is lacking, and I haven't heard favorable things about the quality of her patterns (I think Kate has some experience with them).

I do think RH research is otherwise very good--but I tend to steer clear of her products, because I haven't heard many positive reviews (or had good experiences myself). As always, YMMV.

The nice thing about the Period Patterns version is that it includes absolutely every single feature you'd ever want in a Saxon/German gown. If you've seen it in a portrait, I think it's in that pattern!

[gem]

I remember reading the theory that the style is more of a "juniors" or youthful style.  IIRC, the author (I don't recall where I read it) used this painting as support for their theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lucas_Cranach_d._%C3%84._007.jpg  .  I guess youthfulness & slimness do go hand in hand, but even if it were highly documented to be the case, who cares?  I'm pushing 50 and it wouldn't stop me from making/wearing one if I had a mind to.

You probably read it at Reconstructing History. From what I understand (and FWIW), that's where this idea originated.

And GO YOU! You would totally ROCK a Cranach gown.

(Oh, and have to add this funny. You know how you read stuff you maybe hardly ever hear said aloud? Yesterday I was talking about German gowns with Milord, and he stopped me and said, "What in the world is a 'chronic gown?'"  I guess I'm not 100% sure on the pronunciation! CRAH-nahk? Crannick? Anyone?  )

[mollymishap]

snip...

(Oh, and have to add this funny. You know how you read stuff you maybe hardly ever hear said aloud? Yesterday I was talking about German gowns with Milord, and he stopped me and said, "What in the world is a 'chronic gown?'"  I guess I'm not 100% sure on the pronunciation! CRAH-nahk? Crannick? Anyone?  )

OMG!  ROFLOLPMP!!!

[CenturiesSewing]

According to this http://www.forvo.com/word/lucas_cranach/
It sounds like Cran-ahk - soft k to me.

[Kate XXXXXX]

Said exactly the way it's spelled, as far as I can make out...  Well, if you're a Scot and pronounce 'ch' as in loch, that is!   

RH 'history' seems to be dubious at best: third hand research, largely, and very little actual talking to people who know any social history, cloth manufacturing history, or real construction details, and very little of the sort of research Janet Arnold, Susan North, Jenny Tiramini, or Ninya Mikhaila have done.  Very little white gloving at museums and very little actual measuring and experimenting with stitch and construction methods.  Far to many of the pieces are poorly drafted and not sized properly: it's almost as if the patterns have never been fully tested.

I usually find it less trouble to go back to the sources, back to the folk who HAVE done the research, draft up the patterns from scratch, size them from there to the customer measurements, and then add the details we want.  And to go back to the original method of construction for the type of garment and find out WHY that works better than some half-baked modern method with no historical basis.  No, I don't do every stitch by hand, but when it came to fitting the sleeve into the armscye of my silver gown, for example, it became obvious that this was never going to be anything other than hand constructed because there was no other way to do it!

 



There are placed down the back where the sleeve head seam is a whole two inches from the armscye!


After taking acres out here, adding bits there, redrafting sleeves completely, and struggling to makes bits actually fit a human body - all on the one pattern! - I gave up on RH completely.

[isabelladangelo]

Said exactly the way it's spelled, as far as I can make out...  Well, if you're a Scot and pronounce 'ch' as in loch, that is!   

RH 'history' seems to be dubious at best: third hand research, largely, and very little actual talking to people who know any social history, cloth manufacturing history, or real construction details, and very little of the sort of research Janet Arnold, Susan North, Jenny Tiramini, or Ninya Mikhaila have done.  Very little white gloving at museums and very little actual measuring and experimenting with stitch and construction methods.  Far to many of the pieces are poorly drafted and not sized properly: it's almost as if the patterns have never been fully tested.

They haven't.  I won't give up my "sources" but I do know, for a fact, that her early patterns were tested and are sized pretty well.  It's anything she made after the first five or six patterns that gets into the questionable territory to down right wrong.  She lives in Saint Croix, USVI now. 

[Kymberleigh]

Does anyone have experience with the Period Patterns German gown pattern?



It's so hard to see what's going on in that line drawing....

I have this pattern but haven't made anything from it yet (view V - 2014 project).  The instructions are okay, they aren't the most detailed and can be rather confusing to follow.  Anything specific you want to know?

[Margaret]

I have this pattern, but it's at work right now.  Once I get in to the office, I know it has some good construction notes and other such fun stuff.  I can let you know what it says when I get there.

Reconstructing History has a Saxon (Cranach) Gown pattern as well.
http://store.reconstructinghistory.com/rh501-saxon-cranach-gown.html

Toward the end of the dress diary Gem mentioned, the writer mention she had used the Period Patterns pattern, but had heard really good things about the Reconstructing History one. The more I look at the work required to make the Burda pattern into something resembling what it should, the more I think it worth trying the Reconstructing History pattern instead. I've never used their patterns before, suggestions/comments/concerns? I've never used anything from them.

[gem]

Forgot I had seen this before... this costumer has a dress diary featuring the Period Patterns pattern: Landsknecht Gown Diary, and on Page Four, she has this beautiful photo of two gowns she made from it.

Page 3 seems to be a detailed account of sleeve construction (tho' I haven't read it through carefully yet).

I believe she said that she was a novice seamstress when she made these!

[mollymishap]

LOL!  I was looking into joining that group last year.  I acted with her husband years ago when I was doing the New England circuit & he's a great tailor, so I imagine he would have helped her out at first.  All the garb that I saw them wearing at the event I went to--to "check them out" as it were--was very well made & complemented their characters.  I still might join them someday, things just got a bit hectic for me last year so it wasn't feasable. 

BUT, back to the topic at hand: the point is that I've seen those gowns up close & personal & if she used the PP pattern, then that's a good recommendation.