Buckram VS. Horse hair canvas...the eternal (internal) debate.

[Wickedvox]

You all know my current project right? TT kirtle. So. They tell us to use linen buckram. I start wondering, what's the difference between linen and cotton buckram. Do a little research, not much difference that *I* can find. You can't get either of them wet. A little more research. Buckram is period for Tudor bodices. How is that possible?! Did they have "special buckram??"

Ugh. Anyway. I found this thread http://www.renaissancefestival.com/forums/index.php/topic,6304.15.html discussing buckram--where to purchase it, weights etc--and decided to order a couple yards of horse hair canvas because someone offered that up as an alternative. Now I'm questioning my impulse buy because it didn't have a weight http://www.fabricschicago.com/index.php/interfacing/canvas/60-hair-canvas.html. Then I saw Kate post the very heavy sew in interfacing and am wondering which will work better.

I usually lightly bone my bodices, but am so envious of how smooth and tubular Centuries kirtles always look that I MUST have mine look like that too. MUST! So, who is using buckram and what is your solution in inclement weather?? Has anyone used Horse Hair? How did it work out? Who uses the heavy interfacing?

[Lady Kathleen of Olmsted]

I personally use Buckram for Hatmaking, not garb.

For garb, I use 2 layers of Cotton Canvas Duck when underlining Bodices and the heavy Duty Cable Ties for added Boning. There's nothing more detracting than a  wrinkly bodice that does not lay right. I also use an Organic Cleaner called L.O.C. from AMWAY to hand clean garb because itw orks so well on dirt, body odors, etc.

Cotton Canvas Duck also works great for Corset making.

[gem]

I also use heavy cotton canvas for the innards to all my bodices. This one has no boning. Whether or not I relied on the fabric alone to give me the proper shape depends on what that shape is. I don't think I could get this shape on my curvy body without any kind of boning, but for a somewhat curvier silhouette (like the transitional kirtles in The Queen's Servants) I might be willing to see what the fabric alone could do for me.

The Tudor Tailor kirtle bodice, though, is fully boned. I used canvas and cable ties when making mine. I found it to be alarmingly low-cut, however. Here is mine, cut a full two inches higher up top and still looking too low (a large part of the reason I abandoned the project).

Another alternative that would be period is linen canvas. You can get it from Fabrics-store.com. I haven't washed mine, but I suspect at least some of its stiffness (like buckram) comes from sizing.

[CenturiesSewing]

Typing this up really fast, I have plan to make an interlining video soon, as it is useful to see how different fabrics move and bend...


To the best of my current knowledge buckram as we know it, used for hat making and curtains (which is what I used in my green kirtle and my "unicorn" inspired kirtle) is a bit different from period buckram used on clothing. Buckram as mentioned in The Queen's Servants is not stiffened, which makes sense as it was often used to line gowns.

My guess would be it is a medium weight linen.

The Queen's Servants does mention heavy canvas being used as interlining.

The other use of buckram can be seen in Seventeenth century Women's Dress Patterns. There it is used to stiffen the hem of a loose gown, the tabs, the front edges, and is used along with wool in the construction of the gown's yoke. (The gown is also in Patterns of Fashion)

It is also used in one small spot in a 1660's bodice, but it is being used in conjunction with other layers of linen and canvas.

I don't think there is any mention in the book (going from memory here) that the buckram used in the bodice and loose gown is stiffened.

I've been using cotton duck cloth doubled for most of my kirtles, I zig zag stitch the layers together or if I am feeling like hand work I pad stitch the layers together. That in turn I mount on muslin and then the whole thing is basted to the fashion fabric.

I also managed to snag a few yards of linen/cotton canvas to experiment with. I have 2 different style kirtles I'm working on to see how it holds up. They are not done yet, but the canvas really likes to fray and make me sneeze. 

[Rowan MacD]

  The 'tubular look' is mostly due to the proper undergarments, if I am not mistaken. 
  The classic Tudor silhouette is mostly due to the combination of a farthingale, flat corset  (pair of bodies) and a bumroll.
   The bodice and skirt are fitted over the correct foundation garments to give you a smooth, hard looking torso. The only softness is the rise of the bosom over the neckline.

[Wickedvox]

Okay, I was going to use cotton duck *with* the horse hair canvas, but maybe they are similar?? I've used it in the past, but didn't double it, so might be I'll try that before I go diving into my fashion fabric.

Centuries thank you for clearing things up for me! Historically it makes more sense now. Instead of pad stitching by hand, can I just do rows of running stitches and get the same effect?

Once again, you've all proved invaluable-- *muah!*

[CenturiesSewing]

I have yet to work with hair canvas, as an interlining for a bodice, I know it is used in traditional male suit making for structure. I would be wary of using it as an interlining in something as fitted as a kirtle bodice, because the horsehair over time might start to work its way out and poke into you.

I use cotton duck because it is cheap and easy for me to get locally, a linen canvas would be a step in a more historical direction. But I am a big advocator of using what is on hand. You will not get the same effect doing rows of the running stitch, the neat thing about pad stitching is you can vary the closeness of the stitching and the tension and the interfacing will start to curve into its own stand along form. I'm not sure how to explain it better, but it is worth taking the time to do.

[Wickedvox]

I understand what you're saying. If I had the time I would try that, but my list is just too long. But so you're saying a zig-zag stitch will work similarly to pad stitching?
Good point about the horse hair too. I canceled the order. 
BTW I watched your drafting video on youtube! Awesome! I heart you!

Rowen--I meant to add this last time but forgot: I have worn my bodies with my bodices, but last year...ugh, I don't know if you were around for my yellow-red bodice debacle? I didn't preshink one of my fabrics and it got all wonky, so I tried to press it--with the cable ties in it--and their outline was visible. I also didn't interline it well enough. I was very upset. And even with the bodies underneath, it was still a mess. BUT it did retain it's shape, I will say that. I think my fitting abilities have improved though and this kirtle will fit better than my bodies, so I don't think I'll wear it under this, that's why I want it so supportive too.

[CenturiesSewing]

Yup zig zag stitch should work fine.