Opening day observations

[HollyAtFairyEffects]

I've just found over the years that the more and more I've heard 'mundane' being said, it is said with a HIGHLY derogatory tone.  So when I see it typed, especially as was stated previously in this forum towards those that would dare to bother someone wearing a costume, I take high offense to it.

I'm curious, what would you suggest as a non-derogatory, unambiguous replacement?

I'm with Madam Nina.  Call them Patrons.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
pa·tron      /?pe?tr?n/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pey-truhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person who is a customer, client, or paying guest, esp. a regular one, of a store, hotel, or the like. 
2. a person who supports with money, gifts, efforts, or endorsement an artist, writer, museum, cause, charity, institution, special event, or the like: a patron of the arts; patrons of the annual Democratic dance

[princess farcical]

So, okay, out of curiousity - what do you refer to patrons who *do* dress up?  I.e., what's the opposite of "mundane" within the patron arena?

 

[HollyAtFairyEffects]

So, okay, out of curiousity - what do you refer to patrons who *do* dress up?  I.e., what's the opposite of "mundane" within the patron arena?

 

Playtron

[princess farcical]

So, okay, out of curiousity - what do you refer to patrons who *do* dress up?  I.e., what's the opposite of "mundane" within the patron arena?

 

Playtron

Well, see, but you're a participant - if you'll beg my pardon for saying so, *you* calling them playtrons is kind of an "us vs. them" thing.  I'm really interested in knowing what the non-participants label those people that you refer to as playtrons. 

[Blue66669]

I've heard participants get down right pissy if someone makes the faux pas of calling themselves a Rennie without having had a full season of work experience at the faire. Hell, fights almost ensued!

A few of the participants that I've met do have a clear dividing line between Rennie and Playtron. When you stop and think about it, playtrons are as much a part of the show, and the feel of faire as those who are paid to do it! Rennie to me means Ren Faire Enthusiast- one who delights in the magic that is faire. Even before I was a participant, in my heart, I have always been a Rennie.

[Chandler]

I've been going to the faire since the mid 90s as a 'mundane', and I've never seen the label used in a negative light.

[rumy]

I always understood the terms as such:
Patron = any non-cast or non-worker at faire... i.e. someone who comes in thru the front gate.
Rennie = patron, worker, mundane, dressed up, doesn't matter.  it's someone who comes to fair almost every weekend and spends the whole weekend whether inside or outside the fair.  just being near ren faires is thier joy in life.
Mundane = non-dressed up person who comes to fair.  could be a rennie or not.  can't be a cast person or fair worker.
Participant = opposite of patron.


now.  maybe that's too formulatic and defined, but i was a math major

p.s. i was never aware that mundane was derogatory.  but really, when did rennies get so PC?

[Lady Mousie]

Has anyone gotten a copy of the participant checklist of things to look for? It's like a scavenger hunt! It has things like "How many Jack Sparrows have you seen?" LOL! Too many!

[princess farcical]

Anthropologically speaking, things tend to get derogatory when we "other."  When we refer to people as "mundanes," we're "othering" them - looking at them as separate and distinct.  It's much easier, then, to deride someone "other" than our selves/group; they're different.  It doesn't matter what term we use, though - it's kind of *all* derisive when it's "us vs. them."

I think MadamNina made a good point - after all, "Rennies" and "Playtrons" pay to get in, same as "Mundanes."  I "participate," but I "patron"ize the vendors, same as everyone else.  I dunno - I'm the last person to consider anyone I don't know personally as my "extended family," but I don't get all of the stratifying. It seems kind of clique-ish (in person *and* over the internet).  We're all drawn to the same place for *generally* similar reasons, right?

Just my two cents. 

[DonaCatalina]

I hope opening weekend being so beautiful is an omen for closing weekend to be beautiful as well.

Satellite Photo

[Lady Mousie]

Honestly I usually call mundanes cones or cows myself! LOL! Cones because they stand in the way, cows because they're fun to heard! But hey what would we do with out them? We we're all faire mundanes at some point or another! I know my first year I came in a crappy store bought costume. By next year I had made myself my first set of wrap pants!

[rumy]

getting philosophical:

i think stereotypes and genres are extremely helpful from a distance.  without them, we can't know how to interact with the world.  there are certain ways we should act in certain settings.  in order to determine these settings, we must make assumptions bout our surroundings.  so placing borders and boundaries btwn environments is helpful and necessary as human beings interacting in a unique and everchanging world.  that is the reality of life.

HOWEVER,
when up close, nothing and NOONE fits into a box or stereotype or genre.  everything is unique just as everyone is unique.  so when u get to know someone or something intimately, u realize that all ur stereotypes were off.  when at a distance, u can summarize.  but when close, u must pay attention to the details.

ok.... so that's my defense for definitions and definite terminology.  however vaguely that fits in.  but without definition, there is chaos. 


i do agree princess f that u must not go to far in ur definitions by placing others outside of ur own circle and erecting a huge fence for them to cross.  but realizing that they are not the exact same as u, just states the obvious.

[PyroMaster]

Hey PyroMaster, what was up with us getting shorted that last *BANG* at closing cannon???

ONLY TWO NOW??

Oh. Um. You noticed that, then?  ...  Yes, we are doing 2 booms now. 2 are as good as 3, right?  And besides, these are LOUD booms! We set off a chariot alarm for the first time in years on Sunday 

Think you could squeeze off 3 good booms for me next Saturday? I promise, I'll leave you alone for the rest of the season...

Ohgoodlord if he does that then we're not going to know when the heck we're supposed to go out onto the dais to sing when they are over.  We had a huge Mac Truck moment there on Saturday with the two at the end and not realizing for about 30 seconds they were over, until of course we realized they were over.  O_o

And with that firmly in mind, we ended up with 2 booms this weekend too. It was decided that changing things would just add unnecessary confusion to the process.
- Mark

[RenRobin]

Hey PyroMaster, what was up with us getting shorted that last *BANG* at closing cannon???

ONLY TWO NOW??

Oh. Um. You noticed that, then?  ...  Yes, we are doing 2 booms now. 2 are as good as 3, right?  And besides, these are LOUD booms! We set off a chariot alarm for the first time in years on Sunday 

Think you could squeeze off 3 good booms for me next Saturday? I promise, I'll leave you alone for the rest of the season...

Ohgoodlord if he does that then we're not going to know when the heck we're supposed to go out onto the dais to sing when they are over.  We had a huge Mac Truck moment there on Saturday with the two at the end and not realizing for about 30 seconds they were over, until of course we realized they were over.  O_o

And with that firmly in mind, we ended up with 2 booms this weekend too. It was decided that changing things would just add unnecessary confusion to the process.
- Mark

Mark,
Someone was asking what the symbol was that lit up in the middle of the arena?

[Morrigan]

You know, we can go 'round and 'round about what is offensive and what is not...   But Nina brings up a valid point.   In fact, I was a little surprised when I read her post, because I wondered how the heck she somehow got inside my head and plucked the exact thoughts that had been bouncing around.  I will admit, I was also a bit taken aback and offended by QEII's original post on this thread (not to open up another argument, just using the example).

As the cast seems to be a bit under-represented on this forum (after all, we are renfolk, too!), I'd like to offer a little bit of insight into how WE view some of the issues that have been known to come up.   This isn't a scolding, or a "schooling", just a peek into another point of view that may not have occurred to some...

We are completely aware that the term "mundanes" is common vernacular among renfair enthusiasts, usually used by those in garb to refer to those who aren't.  And I will concede that much of the time when it is used, it is for exactly this purpose, with no negative intention attached.  After all, one definition of the word is "of this world", or "secular".  But keep in mind, the other common meaning is "ordinary, commonplace, boring"; who wants to be referred to as ordinary and boring?  And unfortunately, I have to agree with Nina that in recent years, I have seen the term's usage occasionally take on a more negative tone, ranging from slightly superior and condescending to terribly disdainful and derisive.  These ungarbed patrons are really our primary reason for being out there; devaluing them devalues us and our efforts... and God, we work SO hard out there.  Is it so very hard to understand, when you step away from feeling defensive and try to see from OUR point of view, how it might raise our hackles a little bit when we hear this tone taken towards the people who give SO much back to us for our efforts?    

Generally, we refer to everyone who walks through the front gate as "patrons".   This term is only used with a negative connotation when they are, in some way or another, misbehaving.   To make distinctions, we commonly refer to garbed patrons as "playtrons" or "pet patrons".  I will admit, I have heard the term "playtron" used negatively (and have probably done so myself) on rare occasion; in these cases it is invariably in response to either outright misbehavior or inconsideration, or in response to a snotty, disrespectful, or superior attitude.   When these factors are missing, the term is most DEFINITELY a positive one.  Generally, we love our playtrons, as they tend to add to the atmosphere and the illusion, and therefore enhance the experience for other patrons around them.

As performers, we tend to focus our efforts towards patrons in civvies and in costumes (as opposed to garb).   They tend to be the most responsive, the most entertainable, and the ones most likely to really appreciate our efforts.   I, personally, do not approach patrons in garb, and only interact with them when they approach me.  This is not because of any negative feeling; it is simply because (A) garbed patrons often have their own agenda, and simply don't need my help to buy into the fantasy, and (B) I'm paid to entertain patrons, not vendors or artisans, and frankly sometimes it's hard to tell who is who.

As far as the question of what word we use to refer to "normal" clothes...   I believe the most common one is "civvies".   It just doesn't have the same connotations as "mundane".


I'm not going to go shaking my scolding finger at anyone, nor am I going to presume to tell anyone what words they should use for which people.   But I figured it couldn't hurt to put the info out there, to help people to understand why we feel the way we do about it.