an idea for family friendly time at the seven sisters

[rengypsy]

so, within my own family, the following has arisen...

my youngest son did not want to go to the fire circle this weekend because of all the cursing and foul language...so he and my wife stayed at the cabin and read. 

understand i am a child who was raised in the time of george carlin and richard prior...so, words do not have any definitive evil or good, but are simply a means of expression.  yet, we are commissioned by philosophers of old to "be all things to all men (and women)" whatever that means.  we have to balance our own perspective with that of those about us.  social contract of the age of enlightenment, right?  part of being a diverse community?

so, the suggestion was this: have a kids' friendly time at the seven sisters, much like faire time, until 10pm when our tongues are more restricted and we are more cognizant that faire and our fire circle needs to be a place we mentor and raise the next generation to understand the significant ritual and rite that the fire circle is about for our community.

during this time, the sanctuary of the seven sisters is given to family, to children, the the more refined aspects of communal responsibility.

and then, after 10pm, adult may speak uninhibited...as bacchus fills us with the spirits of grains and the fruits of the vine...

your thoughts?

rengypsy

[Trillium]

Although I haven't been to sherwood yet, hope to fix that this year, whenever someone asks me about the family friendlyness of camping, I have always said that before 10, most areas are fine. After that, children should be in bed and it becomes more adult.  I have a child of my own and while  there are many things that I am not bothered by him seeing, I know there are things going on late that he doesn't need to be exposed to.

[Merlin the Elder]

Rengypsy, I may be the one responsible for teaching Masters Carlin and Prior their naughty words, as I have been around for several centuries.  Because of the hours in question, it seems to be mostly addressed to the work weekends.

It would seem to me that most adults would have a better grasp on what and what is not age appropriate, and adjust accordingly, but I'm also aware that many consider that view to be archaic at best.  While I am not in favour of censorship, I do believe in etiquette, which is considerably different.  Censorship would be like forcing the programming of a TV station to change to fit your taste, when you have the ability to change the station.  It's a bit different when a gathering of friends and family turns out, and some of the people want to take it R-rated without warning.

Rengypsy, I doubt that anyone would consider it an affront if you and George make it policy to keep things a bit more family-friendly until the later hours.  Sherwood is a family, and you are the Patriarchs.

[Blue66669]

That actually sounds like a great compromise!

[RenStarr]

Two thoughts on this come to mind for me:

When in a public place, exercise some (as Merlin the Elder has pointed out) some etiquette when expressing yourself as to not offend those around you.   Rengypsy, I believe your suggestion is a totally reasonable compromise and appropriate considering it's around the Seven Sisters fire circle that should be open to all.

I was in the Jerusalem pub a few seasons back.  A few of the guys were having a good time and thowing around some salty language.  A lady got offended, said something that left no doubt how she felt about the language, and stormed off.  Could they have toned it down a bit, sure.  But it's a BAR/PUB!!  Seems a bit naive to me on her part to think conversations in a bar are not going to involve some salty language.     

[PollyPoPo]

...

I was in the Jerusalem pub a few seasons back.  A few of the guys were having a good time and thowing around some salty language.  A lady got offended, said something that left no doubt how she felt about the language, and stormed off.  Could they have toned it down a bit, sure.  But it's a BAR/PUB!!  Seems a bit naive to me on her part to think conversations in a bar are not going to involve some salty language.     

Most bars by nature are home to salty language.  I remember when there were bars that had a separate entrance for ladies into a separate room at bars.  That way the men understood that their language was to be curtailed in that area.  Woe to any lady entering the main door, for by using that door she proclaimed that she was a female, but not a lady.   Those days are long gone.

Unfortunately, during the first year at Sherwood, seating was in very short supply, with tables even more scarce.  The Pub was one of the few places (maybe the only place) that had covered seating and sufficient tables where people could sit down and eat.  It led to some unhappy encounters between the patrons who saw it solely as a drinking bar and those who thought it was a place to sit down with family and eat. 

Last year a couple food vendors put in decking for eaters and at least one had a covered deck.  With the unpredictable swings in temperatures and rain during Faire season, hopefully there will be more sheltered eating areas for families.  That way they can avoid the bar atmosphere if they choose and the bar patrons can be comfortable without worrying about children or families sitting at the next table.

[Merlin the Elder]

A pub should be a bit more lax, but again, it depends on the situation. Regardless of where one happens to be, if the area is not designated as age restricted, and some wee ones are present, I should hope that one's good manners would prevail.

There are some words and phrases that even I—who have a very salty tongue at times—would find offensive, not necessarily because of the word or phrase itself, but in how it is used to show extreme disrespect for someone.  Admittedly, I come from a different era, but to hear someone refer to their lady as "my b!tch" is to show the utmost disrespect for a woman. These days we have all sorts of words and phrases that are hateful and demeaning. THOSE I WILL take offense at. I don't take to bigotry toward ANY group.

When you are only around grown adults, restrictions fall. If they find offense at the more common word for faeces, for example, then perhaps they need to reassess how important and earth-shattering the experience really is in the grand scheme of life. There really are more important things to worry about.

[*Teach*]

quote author=RenStarr link=topic=18948.msg398477#msg398477 date=1359040551]
I was in the Jerusalem pub a few seasons back.  A few of the guys were having a good time and thowing around some salty language.  A lady got offended, said something that left no doubt how she felt about the language, and stormed off.  Could they have toned it down a bit, sure.  But it's a BAR/PUB!!  Seems a bit naive to me on her part to think conversations in a bar are not going to involve some salty language.     

I will own up to that one.
As a general rule I hold my tongue when there are wee ones about. It's a habit from my job really.
However, if you knowingly bring a child into a bar you should expect language like that.
I pointedly asked her if she knew she was in a bar (without cursing at that point btw) and was rapidly cordoned off by the rest of the guys I was with before I could really explain myself (it was batchelor party weekend for my son). I make no apologies there. I feel I was in the right.
I totally agree with the language request outside of the pub area though.

*there was a lot of rum involved with that day*

[PollyPoPo]

A pub should be a bit more lax, but again, it depends on the situation. Regardless of where one happens to be, if the area is not designated as age restricted, and some wee ones are present, I should hope that one's good manners would prevail.
...

(stepping onto the soapbox)

I think Merlin has hit on part of the disconnect in opinion about the Pub (and presumably the new second tavern that has been added on the other side of the Faire).  I do not believe there is an official designation of 21 and up only. 

Understandably some people view the Pub as a tavern for adults only and others thought it was more like a neighborhood ice house where families with children are more common.   Thus, some people might have gone in to sit at a table in the pub with children, expecting behavior more in line with the neighborhood ice house, not a tavern.   Luckily now, there is  a lot more seating available outside the Pub (though only a few covered seating areas yet).

During Faire season, the Pub is absolutely packed with people drinking and having a good time all day.  I believe most families stay away now simply because it is not inviting due to the crowding.  (Personally I would not even try to squeeze my way through to the bar after about 11:30 a.m.)

This seems to be the same at TRF and Scarby and, I presume, other large commercial faires.  Drinkers feel they should have areas that are totally adult in nature; families believe they should be able to take children anywhere not designated 21 and older.  It all works out in the end as people learn to avoid the tavern areas when the kids are with them.

As the original question for Sherwood has to do with off-season Gatherings, the situation is different.  During the Gathering day the Pub is used as a spot for work-day volunteers to join up, interviews, and various faire business; in the evening, everybody gathers at the Pub for pot-luck, including families and children.

Then there is a fire at the 7 Sisters starting around 8ish and going late into the night.  Some people do bring their kids to the fire; others choose not to do so and some adults have been avoiding the fire circle because of language and activities with which the adults may not be comfortable. 

Rengypsy always seeks to find a way to make Gatherings more inclusive, rather than exclusive.  Thus he seeks a way to include those who do not feel welcome or comfortable at the evening fire, at least for the early part of the fire.  I wish him luck in finding a way to make the evening activities inviting to as many people as possible.



(getting off soap box now)

[LadyStitch]

It is appreciated that people take in the fact there are young ears around.  I respect that after 9 or 10 pm you let fly in communal areas.  That is completely acceptable to me. 
Last fall when I took fuzzlet into the Sea Devil, it was not because I really wanted to, but because the people I wanted to see and get hugs from were there.  I knew she would be exposed temporarily to 'adult humor'.  It is a pub, you expect that.  We were parents taking her into a know ADULT area.  Did I get angry at people for their adult language? NO, I was in their space.  (I did get upset at the drunk guy trying to poke fuzzlet through her rain fly as she was sleeping.  You DON'T poke the sleeping baby dragon unless you want to deal with Mummy dragon. Enough said. )
What I would get upset with is when it is pouring down rain, the only shelter is the over hang of the pub and the adults pay no heed to families just trying to get out of the rain temporarily and continue reenacting the ball of ballymore.  It is a matter of give and take, and respect for each other.  Saddly that is not always the case. 

As for rengypsy to make a policy to make before 10 pm PG around the fire circle, sounds fine by me.  I'll have the fuzzlet in bed before then, and the debaughery can continue to everyone's content.  I get my time by the fire, and you get your adult fun.  WIN, WIN