Paranoia at the Farie rant

[KeithR]

As I have done for almost 30 years, I come out to enjoy the Faire and all it has to offer. I enjoy the color, sounds, sights and food, and relish the good times. Through this forum, I have had the opportunity to meet and talk with a few of you and find the friendship most welcoming. I also come to photograph the same as my way to relax. I've gladly given out prints to those that come before my lens and asked for copy, and have never sought out anything that would not be shown in church. As yet, I've not posted anything online, one, because I don't have an online account to do that, and two, I'm leery of having images stolen. I do belong to a camera club associated with TCACCC and have entered some images in our monthly competitions, but everything stays within the confines of the club and are not published. I also know about releases and since I don't want to publish anything, I don't carry around release forms.
To that end, I was completely disenchanted when security came up to me, and politely asked that I not take pictures without asking permission first. In talking with DB(who was also approached) I was told that photogs with long lenses where being asked that they seek permission first. Someone needs to educate somebody(security in particular) as to what big lenses are for and that someone with much small cameras and lenses could do much more harm if they desired. I for one have absolutly no inclination to exploit anyone in any way, but as a photographer, I do seek out images that emote a feeling and when I spot the looks on children, I try to capture it. The way I see it, those looks of joy and utter astonishment(have you seen the look on a child face when they're in front of Twig!) are gems. There is no way that can be posed. If a parent came to me and asked to see the image and wanted a copy, I would never say no, and just ask for their info so I can send them a copy. And if you ask if I make any money, let's just say that I spend more on a ticket than I've been paid in all those years. As I said, I have no desire to exploit anyone and only do this to relax(shooting the Vikings for over 30 years is enough of a grind. ). I just think it's a sad state of affair when peoples paranoia overshadows everything, especially at a venue such as the Faire. Not everyone is out to make a buck, or exploit anyone. I hope to make it out again this year, but I don't know if I'll be able to enjoy it the same way knowing that any at any time, someone might tap me on the shoulder and ask me if I have permission to look and enjoy myself....
End of rant!

[Gauwyn of Bracknell]

Would this not be considered a public place and that you have a right to take photographs in a public place?

This just sounds silly

[KeithR]

Legally, it is not a public place since you pay to get on private(leased)property.

[Gauwyn of Bracknell]

yes, I guess that is true.  Should they not then post signs saying no pictures allowed - where do they draw the line. 

[Goody]

I was very surprised two years ago when I was taking a snap shot (I am not a photographer, just using reg camera) of the little children who do song/motions/dances at the meade booth. One lil girl said to me (after I took the pic) "We can not have our pictures taken and they can not be put on the internet." Now this was obviously what her parents had preplanned for her to say but it kinda threw me for a loop cuz I thought, how many times do think this happens without your parents even knowing?? If kids are put out there to perform or even adults performing are people really gonna ask to take a photo in the middle of a performance? And how is a photographer different than Joe with a camera?? For some reason this interests me cuz at my old job I had to call family members (of adults) to have permission (after the initial signed release) every quarter and document their permission to have pics taken.

[TheFerret]

I for one will never complain about having my picture taken. I only complain about not getting to see them to show them off! I am sorry to hear that there is paranoia over photos. There's always something to freak out about.

[Leyla]

Don't the tickets say something about how if you're on grounds you're granting permission for your photo to be taken? I haven't been yet so don't have that stub to look at.

[ladydiwinter]

  I know there are many afraid of their images to end up on the internet and all heck breaking lose with all the id thefts and everything. My hubby is included in this bunch as to the fact that he doesn't want any photos of him up on my face book pages at all. There are also the people who read and believe every urban legend that they hear about what can happen if you put a photo up on line. With that being said... In my case, I take pictures to remember the moment, I post very few online and if I do they are of me or of performers. A good example, I just went to the Randy Travis concert in Walker last night and posted a few pics of him and his band on facebook. If, and this is a big IF someone is planning on selling the images, then you should have a model release.

[Lady L]

Leyla is right, the ticket does say you are giving them permission to take and use photos of you.

I noticed we have a lot of new security people this year. In fact, I haven't seen any that I knew from other years. I also heard of them roughing up some people that were participants, but I don't know what happened.

[DeadBishop]

Hi Keith, thought I would chime in here as well.  Forgive my long winded post, but this is a universal issue for photographers everywhere, not just at fest.  But this is what happened this weekend;

Apparently a parent(s) complained that a photographer was taking pictures of children, so safety services were out harassing anyone with a "big camera".  I say harassing because I was approached by safety services and in so many words accused of being a pedophile because I had a "big camera".  I understand why they were doing this, but the way they were going about this was quite poor in my opinion.  Basically it was "guilty before proven innocent" for anyone with a "big camera".  If they are going to follow through on something like this, they need to do it with EVERYONE who has a camera.  You can't discriminate.  Yes, there are creeps out there who prey on children, that may have "big cameras", but statistically, there are far more pedophiles out there with smaller concealable cameras that allow them to disguise or hide their activities so they don't get caught.  This is a very sore subject with me, as well as many other professional and enthusiast photographers, who have been constantly harassed for doing things that are completely normal and legal when a small group of criminals like pedophiles and terrorists have been caught using cameras.  We get lumped into one big group of "they have a big camera, they must being doing something sinister".  I haven't done anything wrong, but because I have a nice camera I'm now being profiled as a potential criminal.  Again, there's a word for that; discrimination.  

But, even going on those assumptions, according to the wording on the ticket, photographers DO NOT need permission to take photos of anyone at fest.  And I quote:

"Ticket Holder further assumes for himself/herself, as well as for each minor in the charge of ticket holder....consents to the use of ticket holder likeness incidental or primary to any promotion, display, transmissions, or reproductions of the event."  

This means that when someone pays to enter this private event, they are agreeing to allow anyone to take their picture/video without needing a release form.  I don't believe safety services has the authority to change that in any way.  Many large events use this type of legalese wording for concerts and such, and when necessary, they post "no photography/recording devices allowed" on the tickets and/or on site when it's not allowed.  If fest is going to change their policy, fine, but they need to change it on the ticket, because that is essentially a contract for entry and is legal binding should anything happen.  You either allow it or you don't.  You can't pick and choose among a group of individuals who all entered under the same conditions who is or isn't subject to the agreed upon terms.

[groomporter]

From another angle, I think in the not too far past there was rumored to have been someone taking photos on site that later may have been associated with taking pictures of underage girls and who later may have connected to potential a molestation, or questionable photos charge, so part of this may be in part an over-reaction to a actual real issue that MAF may have had to deal with.

[Will Gamwell]

It sounds to me like the situation was poorly handled by those on Safety Services that were doing the leg work.  There are quite a few newbies there over the past two years.

I think the best way to approach this issues is for someone (or more than one) to go to the head of safety services (or Marketing) and bring up the concern of how you were treated as a photographer.  Perhaps DB and/or Majik.

And yes, Groomporter is correct in the fact that this was an actual incident that occurred several years ago.

[William_MacKean]

Legally, it is not a public place since you pay to get on private(leased)property.

It is kind of both.  Being open to the public, fee or not, makes it a public place.  Much like a mall.  Privately owned, but open to the public.

That said, the First Ammendment allows anyone to take pictures of anyone or anything that is in general view from a public place.  You can NOT, however, sell pics of characters in certain ways.  Example:  You cannot follow Twig around and then make a calendar of her.  Flowers?  Patrons?  Wood chips?  Sure.

I support SS 100% in all things.  Even when I generally don't agree.  So, if they ask you to stop, it would be best that you do.  Maybe ask to speak with someone in management.  Just for clarification.

[Charlotte Rowan]

I get the kid thing, and I really try not to take pics of kids (with my little point and shoot). Or if I do, I never post pictures of strangers' kids on the internet. That said, harassing people with "big cameras" is just ridiculous. If someone is following a particular child around snapping MANY pictures, that's one thing and maybe cause to investigate further. But snapping a photo or two of a cute child moment? That should not illicit harassment or accusations of pedophilia!

[majikboxman]

In reading this topic, this is the first I've heard of it. I wasn't aware that the SS was doing this or there was a concern.  I haven't had word one said to me by any SS staff 'or otherwise' this year and have been in their presence many times over the first 2 weeks.  

Now... in reading the comment of SS accusing someone of pedophile, they better think twice before saying that to me as I won't take that crap from anyone.  Even though I live with a disability, I'll be sticking my foot up someone's weed puller if that accusation is made to me about me.  Chances are... if something like that is said to me, I'll be in phone contact with their higher-ups before the offending person can even finish their scentence.