Is Purple historically accurate?

[DonaCatalina]

Ah, another can of worms. 

Purple for Royalty is a fair-ism also.  Because we are trained from childhood that it is so.  However it is based on a truth, in that it was Very expensive to create the crimson/purple, so only the very wealthy could afford it.  Also, sumptuary laws would create more stress on the person wanting to wear it, as there was a "fine". With that being said, it is not difficult to create a lavender, or other pale "purple", from natural ingredients.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69B7DWEKANY  Here is an example of how it was made.  Plus it's a great show.

And it is possible that the purple that the Romans and Medieval people knews was as purple as what we know today. Experiments with sea snails raised in special artificicial environments that were free of modern pollutants produced a brilliant royal purple.
Sumptuary laws which governed what people were fined for wearing changed from monarch to monarch and country to country. sumptuary laws in the middle ages were different that the Elizabethan ones.

[DonaCatalina]

Example of Tyrian purple from Murex sea snails.
Anybody found a portrait yet?

[isabelladangelo]

http://www.metmuseum.org/works_of_art/collection_database/the_costume_institute/jacket/objectview_altviewenlarge.aspx?page=1&sort=0&sortdir=asc&keyword=&fp=1&dd1=8&dd2=0&vw=0&collID=8&OID=80002278&vT=1&iID=4&iPage=1&hi=0&ov=0

An extant jacket from the 1610's with purple thread -among many other colors!

http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O8821/miniature-sir-thomas-more-and-his/ - purple velvet lined sleeves, black gowns, fur showing on the bottom, with red undersleeves

[gem]

As Isabella mentioned, the sleeves in this 1540 portrait by Bronzino look a little brownish on my monitor, but IRL they're a deep, vivid plum color (which Kate would call damson!):



You'll all note the color of the rest of her gown, as well. 

[Lady Kathleen of Olmsted]

Because of how difficult it was to harvest enough Sea Snails, process them to produce the Color Purple, laws stated that the color  was only reserved for the Monarch and his/her immediate family members.

Though Woad was plentiful, this smelly, cabbage-like vegetable was processed to create the varying degrees of bright blues when the air hit the yarn strands.

[Master James]

Because of how difficult it was to harvest enough Sea Snails, process them to produce the Color Purple, laws stated that the color  was only reserved for the Monarch and his/her immediate family members.

That is not quite correct.  I have read many accounts where everybody all the way down to knights were allowed to wear some purple in their garb however based on rank the amount was regulated.  Knights were allowed very little where a Duke could wear almost as much as the monarch.

[operafantomet]

I'll repeat what I said in the other thread (about pink):

Again it comes down to the dye used. Fabrics mostly got their colour name from the dye used, and not from what colour people saw. Red was not limited to nobility in 1560s Florence, for example, but crimson was. Crimson was an expensive red dye, and because of this it was limited to the nobility. All who could afford it wore red, but only the very upper class wore crimson red. See the difference?

To some degree the same applies for purple shades. However, the purple shades are hard to produce, a lot harder than red shades, and was even more expensive than crimson. From Byzantine time porfyra (=purple) had been used by emperors and popes, and it remained expensive until the synthetic dyes were invented in the mid 19th century. Then the use of PURPLE and other bright colours exploded. From pictoral sources the Byzantine purple is a bit more red in appearance than the modern equivalent:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Justinian.jpg

But the Renaissance artist Botticelli has depicted a man in what I consider "modern purple" (I.E. more blue) in one of his illustrations of Dante's "Divina Commedia". It's the same man repeated, as he and Dante moves around in Inferno to see the punishments of "panderers and seducers and flatterers". I think he is to represent Virgil, but his purple cloak and tall hat is very un-Roman. Probably some symbolism I'm not getting there.
http://www.lib-art.com/imgpainting/8/7/7478-inferno-canto-xviii-sandro-botticelli.jpg

So purple did indeed exist in both its modern version and a more antique version. And as you suggest, it was reserved for the richest of the richest. Which I'm sure Gloriana would consider herself!

Here's more on the discussion of purple, which has been quite active at this board previously:
http://www.renaissancefestival.com/forums/index.php?topic=3773.0

[Gauwyn of Bracknell]

We are richer than most in that period, so we will continue to wear purple (I am working on my third million, wasn't getting anywhere on the first 2). 

[isabelladangelo]

http://www.dhm.de/ausstellungen/kurzweil/apr3.htm <- A very purple dress being worn by an older German lady (warning, the guy next to her is mooning everyone so...)

http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CDocZ.aspx?o=&DT=ALB&E=2C6NU0O5XX22&Pass=&Total=14&Pic=3&SubE=2C6NU0G542UK <- I'm so happy I found this one because there is LOTS of purple in it.  Also, notice, there is one guy wearing a red cap so it's not just some weird faded red. 

http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CDocZ.aspx?o=&DT=ALB&E=2C6NU0MY6FVL&Pass=&Total=30&Pic=6&SubE=2C6NU09I6WEX <- Purple lined cloak

http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CDocZ.aspx?o=&DT=ALB&E=2C6NU0YC43QG&Pass=&Total=45&Pic=27&SubE=2C6NU09S6RB0 <- I think her skirt is actually a deep purple color.  If you look at the shoes -which are black, they aren't the same color at all. 

http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CDocZ.aspx?o=&DT=ALB&E=2C6NU09ZJVAH&Pass=&Total=22&Pic=10&SubE=2C6NU0S4KL61 < Pink and Purple in the same painting!!!  With a deep red, for contrast.

http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CDocZ.aspx?o=&DT=ALB&E=2C6NU09ZJVAH&Pass=&Total=22&Pic=11&SubE=2C6NU0S4KOI7 <- Some lovely lavender in this painting

http://www.photo.rmn.fr/cf/htm/CDocZ.aspx?o=&DT=ALB&E=2C6NU03IZ8J4&Pass=&Total=32&Pic=15&SubE=2C6NU04YI8AT <- Lots of purple paint on this one.  Again, the paints and dyes tended to come from the same plants, minerals, and animals.  If they had the paint to make it, they had the dye to make it too.

[isabelladangelo]

http://www.themorgan.org/collections/swf/exhibOnline.asp?id=344

Purple petticoat, red gown - Saint Nicholas not wearing red or fur or with a beard...

[Cilean]

We are actually speaking of apples to oranges.  Color terms changed, so what we know of called 'Purple' and its differing hues, had different names.  English of the Elizabeth's time would have known these terms but do you?  How about; Amaranth, or Murrey or Pansy or Gingerline or Mulberry to all are hues of Purple.  

Italian City States would have known these variants; Violato, Violetto, Hiacintho, Molochino, Morello, Porporina, Purpurato,


For instance? Do we see the term 'Lavender' past the meaning of the flower? We do know they had dye recipes for every thing and so we could be thinking "purple" but it is a completely different name....not unlike Pink, I remember when people stated since the term pink was never used? There was not a Pink that people used, and now we have many many many portraits that disprove that thought entirely!


Plus while checking out the gifts to Elizabeth during her reign, there were several purple and murrey kirtles, Petticoats, and sundries.

Cilean
Who adores that hue so very much!  :0P

[DonaCatalina]

Portrait of a lady with a dog by Paolo Caliari

[Lady Kathleen of Olmsted]

That's a gorgeous portrait, Dona! Thinking about doing that one for yourself? You would look MARVELOUS!!!

[gem]

Oh, yes. Really spectacular. The colors are so unusual! Which bit are you seeing as purple, Dona C? On my monitor, her overgown looks like a deep smoky grey-blue, and the striped skirt/sleeves appear reddish, so, really, they both could be purplish!

This is making me think we should start a STRIPES thread! 

[CenturiesSewing]

Dona, unfortunately that version of the painting had its colors tweaked for working out color schemes.

If memory serves me:

http://trystancraft.com/costume/2007/11/18/veronese-inspiration/

The original is blue and white stripes rather then smokey plum.

[groomporter]

The original post provided a link which says as of 1363
"Cloth of gold and purple silk were confined to women of the royal family".

Some fairs have interpreted this to restrict participants from wearing purple unless they are royals. -If you're a paying customer wear what you want. If you're a participant consult with your local costume director.

[Lady Kathleen of Olmsted]

This is such a wonderful portrait that any Color scheme could work.

I have to concur with Grooporter regarding Purple. If one is a customer/patron of a faire, wear what you want. If one is on cast as part of the Royal Court/Entourage, the wearing of Purple is verboten if not part of playing a member of the Royal Family, unless the Costume Director states otherwise.

Makes sense to me now that I think of it.

[operafantomet]

Dona, unfortunately that version of the painting had its colors tweaked for working out color schemes.

If memory serves me:
http://trystancraft.com/costume/2007/11/18/veronese-inspiration/

The original is blue and white stripes rather then smokey plum.

Yes, that is indeed a photoshopped version. But I agree with others, that outfit would look good in any colour combination!

The doublet she wears is very similar to the one Erik Sture was buried in in 1567. Which is interesting, as the Veronese portrait is dated to 1560-70, and it was about this time women starting adapting male garments into their everyday outfits - doublets, hats etc. Church and authorities was not too happy about this. Pretty much like the Western world in the 1970s... Here's the Sture outfit:



Not that THAT is related to purple... Except that the now tan "pludderhoses" were originally plum coloured. 

[DonaCatalina]

I thought something looked fishy about the black and purple since my search turned up the painting in blue at about twice the rate of the purple and black one.

[Cilean]

Okay,

So the logs of clothing given to the good Queen Bess,

In 1561/62
By the Lorde North, in a purse of purple silk and silver, in dimy soveraignes
By the Lady Fitzwilliam, widowe, one petycoate of purple satten cutt upon gold sarceonett, with two borders embrauderid with gold and silver, and fringed with gold, silver, and silke.
By Sir Gower Carew, Master of the Henchmen, a desk covered with purple vellat embrored with gold.
By Benedick Spinulla, oone hoole peice of purple vellat.
By Richarde Mathews, Cutler, a peir of knives with a shethe, covered with purple vellat.

In 1564/65
By the Earle of Westemerlande in a purse of purple silke and golde in Angelles
By the Earle of Huntingdon in a purse of purple silke and siluer in golde
By Benedicke Spinula a hoole pece of purple vellat wth Satten grounde

In 1565/66
By the lady Dakers of the Sowth a wastecoate of purple satten allour enbradered with Venice siluer
By Benedike Spinola oone greate Cusshion and two lessr of purple


1575
By the Duches of Suffolke, a feyer cushyn of purple vellat, very feyerly embrawdred of the story of Truth set with garnetts and sede perle, the backsyde purple satten frynged, and tassells of Venice golde and silke.
By the Countes of Bedford, a dublet and a foreparte of murry satten embrowdred with flowers of golde, silver, and sylke, and lyned with orenge tawny taphata.
By the Lady Mary Vere, a fore parte of purple taphata, set with roses of white sipers, and cheynes betweene of Venice golde, with a brode pasmane of golde, unlyned and unmade.
By Rauf Bowes, a cap of purple vellat set with eight dosen and six buttons of golde, with a white fether.
By William Huggans, a grete swete bag of purple taphata enbrawdred, and nineteen small baggs of sarcenet.

1577/78
By the Duches of Suffolke, a feyer cushyn of purple vellat, very feyerly embrawdred of the story of Truth set with garnetts and sede perle, the backsyde purple satten frynged, and tassells of Venice golde and silke.
By the Countes of Bedford, a dublet and a foreparte of murry satten embrowdred with flowers of golde, silver, and sylke, and lyned with orenge tawny taphata.
By the Lady Mary Vere, a fore parte of purple taphata, set with roses of white sipers, and cheynes betweene of Venice golde, with a brode pasmane of golde, unlyned and unmade.

1578/79
By the Countes of Kent, doager, a mufler of purple vellat, enbrawdred with Venice and damaske golde and perle.
By the Lady Barones Sheffelde, a kyrtyll of purple satten, with roses of white lawne enbrawdred with golde unlyned.
By Mr. Dyer, a foreparte of white satten, with a brode garde of purple satten, enbraudered withe Venice golde, silluer, and sede perle, unlyned.

As to portraits, I have not found a single one, does this mean no one wore it? Nope, it means they picked other colors, remember color was symbollic and perhaps? Purples were not the thing? I don't know I found dozens of gifts in the color gynger and ash and all a manner of white and black. So I can establish they existed because they were given to the Queen, but I have no portrait evidence to show it.

Cilean
Who will wear 'Murrey' and Purple proudly!!! 

[isabelladangelo]

Keep in mind, what we call purple and what they called purple are two different colors.  We "confuse" purple and violet all the time -they didn't.   Purple was a deep maroon with a slight blue tinge to it.   Violet was what we still think of violet as.   

http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/workbox/extcam1.htm -extant chemise with violet/purple (Arnold calls it Lavender, I think) embroidery

http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/search-the-collections/120039906?rpp=20&pg=1&ft=gloves+embroidered&pos=3 - gloves with violet embroidery

[Cilean]

Because of how difficult it was to harvest enough Sea Snails, process them to produce the Color Purple, laws stated that the color  was only reserved for the Monarch and his/her immediate family members.  Though Woad was plentiful, this smelly, cabbage-like vegetable was processed to create the varying degrees of bright blues when the air hit the yarn strands.

However? Inventive people today can over dye madder with woad and get a very deep aubergine color, so why would the people we emulate?  Perhaps like recipes for veggies? It was considered so standard people did not feel the need to show it? I am trying to find a portrait that needs cleaning some say it is murrey or plum colored but shows brown now.  There are some others that suggest some of the blacks we see today, when cleaned they might be greens or purples.  I know a Titian was recently cleaned and oh my GOSH how the color pops now!

Cilean

[DonaCatalina]

Several restored paintings have revealed brilliant colors under the dirt and lacquer.

[Cilean]

The Ladies over at Tudor Tailor were just commenting on 'Violet' being a color that was woad mixed with beets or other commonly found dyes of the time period.

I think we have the same issue we have had with "Pink", I have seen carnation and maiden's blush, or several other names but not the term "Pink" does it make it any less Pink? Or Purple? Murrey is documented as being a deeper Violet color.  Recently I was astounded to see a very young couple show me the color they wanted in their home, it was called Moss Green, but really? It was Avocado from the 70's!! I was like? Um? But I did not want to hurt their feelings, so I asked them if they did any color science or psychology of color choices and that green hues might not be what they wanted to paint their kitchen.

Just wanted to re-mention this information, from ,now on? I am going to call my purple? Violet!

Cilean
Voilet and Happy!

[gem]

Recently I was astounded to see a very young couple show me the color they wanted in their home, it was called Moss Green, but really? It was Avocado from the 70's!!

Hee!  This is totally OT, but in collage, I once (very briefly) lived in an apartment with a PINK oven. I wonder how many of *those* they sold?    

[Merlin the Elder]

My in-laws had purple bathroom fixtures...historically accurate for the 50s, I suppose...

[DonaCatalina]

This past week we went to see Caravaggio and His Followers ij Rome. Part of the exhibit was
Claude Vignon
Judith with the Head of Holofernes c. 1620
oil on canvas
102 x 82 cm
Koelliker Collection

I cannot find the image online; but she is shown with her right shoulder facing out. Her Italian style dress is a dark olive; but her large sleeves are Welch's grape soda purple.