So I was wondering what you thought of ......

[Breandan]

either that, or one very unfortunate- and quite large- pigeon

[maelstrom0370]

Well, I think we're all aware of what crap shoot Faire food can be. It coulda been "Dumpster Chicken" for all I know but, it was sure tasty!! 

[knarlyknot]

Dracconia, I think it's funny that we thought along the same lines, I too wondered about socialized healthcare so I turned to the boards for answers, I sent a personal message to a member of the Canadian forum on here and we had a lengthy discussion about the pros and cons of their healthcare system, all in all she was happy with it.

[RSLeask]

As long as I can take a private insurance, if I so desire, I'd have no problem with it.  But a mandated, government-run medical system only?  No thanks.  There's actually not much wrong with the current (aside from skyrocketing premiums), and as I see, there are three fixes that would vastly improve things:

1) Do away with HMOs.  Period.  That was the worst thing to happen to medical care, ever, was their invention.
2) Better regulation of the pharmaceutical companies.  They've gotten out of hand.  Better regulation of the drugs they put out, and no allowance for them to provide doctors money to push a specific company's product.  That's a big load of horse droppings.
3) Kill the FDA.  Period.  Slash that organization apart, bury it, and come up with something better.  It is the single most corrupt government organization out there, bar none, and needs to go the way of the dodo.  I might be a little more harsh because of their recent reregulation of tobacco that goes into effect starting 1 Oct, but they seriously need to go away.

Those three things happen, guarantee you, things would improve vastly. 

[Noble Dreg]

Well, I think we're all aware of what crap shoot Faire food can be....

Now there is a true argument for universal health care...Rennies need help paying the doctor bills should they eat at Faire!   

[Xanthenes The Unbalanced]

To be honest, I'm rather shocked this topic is still active.  So, let's see if I can squeak one post in under the wire.

I'll leave aside "friend of a friend" stories in regards to "socialized" healthcare, as seemingly everyone on one side of the argument has a Canadian or British friend who's being mistreated by their health coverage.  Personally, I have friends and relatives in the U.K., France, and Canada.  To a person, they like their coverage and treatment.  However, the relatively few I know are also inconsequential to the discussion.

Here's what's consequential:

The U.S. is now 47th in life expectancy - source:  CIA Factbook
The U.S. is now 43rd in infant mortality - source:  CIA Factbook
The U.S. is now 37th in WHO health care rankings, a measure of how much WE like our health care system
The U.S. had 47 million uninsured citizens as of 2006, according to the US Census Bureau.

Not good numbers.  However, there are a few areas where we're first:

-  U.S. citizens spend more than twice as much per capita on health care as any other citizens in the world ($7,129 as of 2005)

-  Over the last decade, the U.S. has the highest rate of health care sector inflation in the world (clocking in at 87% over just the period from 2000-2006).  Overall inflation during that time was a mere 3.5%.  Wages increased over that same time frame by just 3.8%.  Middle class incomes shrunk by 2.8%.

-  The U.S. has the most profitable health insurance sector in the world, with over $30 billion in reported profits in the last three years

-  The U.S. health system spends more on health care-related paperwork than any country on Earth.  By example, as of 2004, the U.S. spent four times as much on health care-related paperwork as Canada.

-  The U.S. leads the world in personal bankruptcies attributable to medical expenses.  Source - Health Affairs Journal 2005

The same boogeymen I've seen for years are now coming back out of the closet to, once again, knock down any sort of real health care reform.

"Socialized medicine has never worked."  - To the contrary, we are the only first world nation which does NOT have socialized medicine.  We have socialized police, fire, military, roads, mail, water & sewage, etc., but we're lead to believe that if we take that step over to medicine, we'll all be a bunch of pinko commies.  And we're lead to be believe that for a very good reason:  There is a mother load of profit to be had out of such a poorly run health care system.

"The government can't do anything right."  -  Two points.  The government is, and always has been, what the people demand of it.  Secondly, there seems to be a belief that even in a single-payer system, which this proposed legislation is most definitely NOT, government mail carriers would be treating your sick kid.  You'll still get the doctors you get right now.  The only difference would be removing some of the unsustainable cost increases from the system.  Also, we might get to a system where someone's bonus check isn't dependent on denying your kid the care he needs.  After all, that's how health insurance companies make $30 billion in profits in a three-year span:  rate increases and coverage denial.

"It's un-American!" - In reality, the tremendous profit motive apparent in the health sector is a relatively new phenomenon, traceable to the Nixon years.  For some delightful listening, I'd encourage anyone to listen to the Nixon tapes regarding the formation of HMOs. 

"We'll derail medical advances" - In 2006, less than 10% of all drug trials involved distinctively new drug compounds. (source: Wired)  What our drug companies have become, in large part, are "me too" companies.  For instance, one company develops Viagra.  Another company pours hundreds of millions of dollars into developing a similar chemical compound which is just different enough to avoid patent violation and calls it "Levitra".  Another comes along and, after a few hundred more million, releases "Cialis".  As for actual cures, our drug companies have no motive for curing disease.  It would be like me finding a cure for advertising.  It just wouldn't make financial sense.  What drug companies excel at are making expensive chronic treatments, in most cases quite similar to those already on the market.

"But we'll have to ration health care" - Lastly, we have rationing.  Ever since Reagan On Vinyl in the 60's, we've heard about the evils of rationing care.  Yes, care WILL be rationed.  And yes, care IS rationed now.  Any time you have something less than an infinite number of doctors, care, by necessity, is rationed.  It's just a matter of math. 

The monster we've created is simply unsustainable.  It now accounts for 1/6th of our GDP.  Given another ten years of double-digit sector inflation, it'll be up around 1/4.  A good health insurance plan can now easily exceed a middle class family's mortgage payment.  And if you're getting your health insurance through your employer, please remember it's not free.  Middle class wages fell 2.8% from 2000 to 2008, in large part because businesses were picking up most of the tab as health care inflation soared.

As a small-business owner who still provides health insurance, this runaway inflation has reached near-crippling levels, where I'm almost left with two choices:  freeze or even cut payroll, or cut all health benefits, which would be akin to a huge pay cut for my employees.  As an added bonus, we have a system where small-business owners, even those who belong to large group pools through chambers of commerce and the like, pay almost 33% more for our employee health insurance than large companies.  And being the only first world country without a single-payer system, our larger companies have to compete on the world stage with foreign competition which don't have to shoulder the burden.

It's too expensive, there's too much profit gouging, there are too many uncovered citizens.  To be receiving any sort of reasonable "bang for our buck" on health care, Americans would have to be living for about 180 years at this point.  But we're not.  While we like to claim our health system is the best in the world, the numbers just don't add up.

The time for fixing this problem via baby steps was 10 or 20 years ago. 

//  And no, I most assuredly didn't not intend for this post to be THAT long.   

[Xanthenes The Unbalanced]

As long as I can take a private insurance, if I so desire, I'd have no problem with it.  But a mandated, government-run medical system only?  No thanks.  There's actually not much wrong with the current (aside from skyrocketing premiums), and as I see, there are three fixes that would vastly improve things:

1) Do away with HMOs.  Period.  That was the worst thing to happen to medical care, ever, was their invention.
2) Better regulation of the pharmaceutical companies.  They've gotten out of hand.  Better regulation of the drugs they put out, and no allowance for them to provide doctors money to push a specific company's product.  That's a big load of horse droppings.
3) Kill the FDA.  Period.  Slash that organization apart, bury it, and come up with something better.  It is the single most corrupt government organization out there, bar none, and needs to go the way of the dodo.  I might be a little more harsh because of their recent reregulation of tobacco that goes into effect starting 1 Oct, but they seriously need to go away.

Those three things happen, guarantee you, things would improve vastly. 

Quick replies:

1.  Okay, we've killed HMOs.  Now what?  HMOs are crap, most certainly, but now that we've dislodged millions of Americans from the only type of insurance they can afford, where to now?  If they're on HMOs, they almost certainly can't afford PPO plans or the like, and they may not qualify for government programs as they're currently structured.

2.  Good idea.  I'd extend that to the insurance industry, as well.  Actually, my preference would be to go there first.  Heck, go there at the same time.

3.  While I'd argue that the defense department is far and away the most corrupt in regards to kickbacks and waste (I'd still like the 40 senators who voted to sustain funding for a multi-billion dollar jet program, the Raptor, which won't even fly in the rain, to explain themselves), I'd certainly go along with this.  I think there are other priorities I'd throw in my top three, but the FDA does need a serious reboot.

[Xanthenes The Unbalanced]

Well put MaelStrom, well put indeed.

Now pull your fingers outa your ears and go back to eating that turkey leg! (God I hope that is a turkey leg!)

As the guy who took that photo, I know EXACTLY what it is.

//And for $50.00, I'll tell the whole world.

[Lady Nicolette]

I'm glad to see that everything has managed to stay civil in this thread and that all sides are being presented in a calm and objective manner. 

[Charlotte Rowan]

I'm for it.

[Noble Dreg]

...I'd still like the 40 senators who voted to sustain funding for a multi-billion dollar jet program, the Raptor, which won't even fly in the rain, to explain themselves...

'Cuz it looks so danged cool!   

[groomporter]

Factcheck.org does a pretty balanced job of debunking rumors about it as well as checking into Obama's statements

Obama's Health Care News Conference Facts vs. Obama
http://www.factcheck.org/politics/obamas_health_care_news_conference.html

Debunking ads claiming Congress is pushing a Canadian-style health care bill.
http://www.factcheck.org/politics/canadian_straw_man.html

[Anna Iram]

...and that's how it's done, right there. I always like to hear what my friends and neighbors think, I like hearing both sides of a discussion, but I'll be sure to read a variety of well documented sources before I really make up my mind about an issue.

I've been reading along , but haven't posted my own thoughts, because, frankly I'm not sure yet how I feel about it. I have a good insurance program now..a PPO...and I'm very happy with it. I do think there is a huge amount of corruption in the insurance game as it stands now and I do think the current programs need better regulations. Just not sure if I want to see it swing so far the other way.


Thanks for those links Groomporter.

[SirRichardBear]

Government run system like Canada's, and most Europeans have work fine as long as all that is needed is standard noncritical, care.  Regular check up that are scheduled months in advance,  getting flu shots,   etc.  Its when a person needs emergence or critical care fast that they fall apart.  That is why the cancer  and heart attack survival rates is so much lower there than in the USA.   Both those require fast response and one thing the government is never good at is fast response.  

The trick is to figure out a way to get the standard stuff under control while still keeping the fast response for critical care we now have.

One opinion I think is worth looking into is small government run medical centers, staffed with nurses and medics instead of doctors.  You could go there for your flu shots, get a bandaid changed, all the things that really don't require a visit to the doctor office.

Also we need to expand insurance so it looks more like car or home insurance.  We need options that lets young people only buy coverage for major accidents and illness instead of total care.  Like the reverse of car insurance I don't carry full cover on my 20 year Oldsmoble, just cover the other guy because its not worth it.  Let young people who don't need to see a doctor choice to only have the coverage they want.

When I look at the plan going through congress today I don't see a bill to improve peoples health care I see a bill designed to increase government power and control over individual.   I don't want the government telling me my mother is to old for hearth sugery and just needs to take pain pills.  That sounds to much like saying old people need to die quickly and stop wasting their kids money.   To much of that going around all ready.

[groomporter]

Some of the problems with the Canadian system may be exaggerated according to this

Debunking Canadian health care myths
http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_12523427