TRF Campgrounds - constructive input

[mpullen]

PollyPoPo, good questions.

Unfortunately, my history only goes back about 12 years, about the time the present family campgrounds came into being and the groups moved into the newly opened area we now have.

For pre-history, we would need some of the folks from that era (The Boners come to mind) to step up and tell the tall tales. I doubt Rooster is on this board, but there are other Boners around.

In the years I started coming to TRF (before camping), Chaos was known as the enforcers of the Patrons campgrounds. Law and order (sort of) was maintained. Chaos marched in the noon parade in full force and armor and their camping area was the center of envy for the other groups. There were few or none RVs/trailers in the campgrounds, as most were young and tent camping was not a problem. Due to the death of some of the Chaos founders and multiple changes in leadership, things have changed. Loss of the Chaos gathering point in-Faire at the Castle (situation which those who know - know, and those who don't know - don't need to know).

We are all a "few" years older and the number of RVs/trailers grow every weekend (even a local company rents them delivered to the campgrounds). Air mattresses, sleeping bags, lanterns, and cold showers have given way to more comfortable dwellings.

Getting back on topic (yeh, even I wander off topic)

Having a Patron campground was probably both a monetary and legal decision. Other Faires in the area (Scarby, LARF) did not have Patrons campgrounds. Excalibur started having Patrons campgrounds at the original site and at the new one, which had a good turnout before things went bust. I believe LARF has now started a Patrons campgrounds (taking over the old Participants campgrounds).

The reality is, more folks will come in if they can stay the weekend and not have to "day-trip" or stay at local motels. I know that my first two years were day-trippers (coming in the morning and leaving near closing) where I missed many of the performances. For the next two years, I stayed at a motel in the area (20 minute drive versus normal 90 minute drive). Since a golf tournament was also happening those weekends, the motel prices were high (and then they started adding the Houston entertainment taxes for the new football, baseball, and basketball arenas). Then I started tent camping. On opening weekend, after starting to setup tent, four individuals stepped forth and offered to move my site out of their area (which I had no idea existed). Spent 4 other weekends that season at a seemingly better location, as it was under a tree and a nice sandy spot (row 5 in the middle). That was when I discovered the "River of Death" when the air mattress became a water bed and things sort of floated.

Next season, met folks from the Drunken Gnomes, who invited me to join their encampment. Things went far better after that. Now I am inducted in Chaos, The Claw, Drunken Gnomes, High Ship Enibration and have friends in several other clans. The established clans pretty much know the folks in the other neighboring clans and keep an eye out for the neighborhood.

So, I believe having a Patrons campgrounds is a sound business move. Folks can attend Faire all day, spending money and interacting with the Performers, and then have a safe evening in camp without having to drive intoxicated (thus the legal reality) and then be ready to come back into Faire Sunday (yeh, not early though).

This thread is intended to explore the problems that folks have experienced and their best ideas on how to improve/eliminate the problem.

I started the Patrons campgrounds at SWFF knowing the TRF problems and built solutions into the layout and operation of the Patrons campgrounds. Now, as I get ready to retire, I would love to do the same thing for Patron camping at TRF. Give me your suggestions.

However, please report existing problems to the TRF staff. Please provide facts to them, so that they can evaluate and respond accordingly. A report that "the port-a-johns were out of toilet paper Sunday morning" deserves a different response than "group came in Saturday morning 2 AM, started blaring music, with teens drinking/smoking drugs and stumbling into neighboring group areas".

[dreamwalker]

How about raised pad for tent using campers to keep away moisture and perhaps some bugs? I'm guessing the only material that's going to last is concrete. Maybe a limited no of them every or every other row?

[Sitara]

How about raised pad for tent using campers to keep away moisture and perhaps some bugs? I'm guessing the only material that's going to last is concrete. Maybe a limited no of them every or every other row?

That sounds nice in theory, but likely would not work. For one, how are you going to stake down your tent to concrete? What size would you make the pads since tents come in a range of sizes?

I love coming down to TRF and one of my favorite parts is camping. My suggestion would be perhaps some more garbage cans or small dumpsters. It's quite sad when you leave on Monday mornings and see the massive piles of trash. Flushies would be awesome, but in the meantime, perhaps some more porta-potties. They get full rather quickly and are usually out of toilet paper quite early in the evening.

[xed]

That sounds nice in theory, but likely would not work. For one, how are you going to stake down your tent to concrete? What size would you make the pads since tents come in a range of sizes?

I love coming down to TRF and one of my favorite parts is camping. My suggestion would be perhaps some more garbage cans or small dumpsters. It's quite sad when you leave on Monday mornings and see the massive piles of trash. Flushies would be awesome, but in the meantime, perhaps some more porta-potties. They get full rather quickly and are usually out of toilet paper quite early in the evening.

I agree as far as the concrete slabs, that's kind of a bad idea.  Not to mention wear and tear on the bottom of your tent, dirt is softer than concrete, etc.

Also, this year, pirate weekend anyway, There were dumpsters out there there I don't remember seeing before.  Also, there seemed to be plenty of toilet paper in the portapotties, which frankly surprised the hell out of me. 

[raevyncait]

when we were out opening weekend, I never encountered a lack of toilet paper. Friday when we arrived around noonish, there were 3 or 4 spare rolls on the shelves up in the corner of the porta pots, and that seemed to last, at least until they were cleaned on Saturday, then Saturday there were several rolls again after cleaning. One of the standard things that goes in my camp supplies is a roll of tp, to have especially for those late Saturday night runs to the privvy!

I would think that the concrete would ONLY be useful for leveling campers, and not a good idea at all for tents.

Since we left by about 3:30 in the rain opening Sunday, I can't really speak to the mess left behind by others at the END of the weekend, but on my way into faire that morning, there was a pretty good selection of abandoned stuff, some of it trash, some of it salvageable stuff. I know that we cleaned up our trash and took the bags over to the nearest trash collection site, and left the tied bags beside the already full trash receptacles. The main improvement I would make would be dumpsters... maybe not totally in place of the existing trash cans, but perhaps a few strategically placed.  I think flushies sound wonderful, as do showers, but considering the mess that's in the porta pots every day, I would think that keeping the flushies & showers clean & operating properly could easily become a nightmare to deal with.

[Glaodian]

How about raised pad for tent using campers to keep away moisture and perhaps some bugs? I'm guessing the only material that's going to last is concrete. Maybe a limited no of them every or every other row?

I see your point.  But from what I have seen at a lot of campgrounds around the US, is the use of pea gravel for tent pads.  But from the few times that I have camped out in a tent in the rain, there really was not all that much of a moisture issue.

[xed]

I think flushies sound wonderful, as do showers, but considering the mess that's in the porta pots every day, I would think that keeping the flushies & showers clean & operating properly could easily become a nightmare to deal with.

Anyone down for double camping fees?
Also, would you really use a public shower after 800 other strangers?  Sounds horribly unsanitary to me, do you realize what some people DO in the shower?
Seriously, baby wipes, along with a bar of soap and an extra gallon or two of water is far superior to paying for showers that you likely won't want to use anyway...

EDIT: Consider the cost of a) building the sowers, b) cleaning/maintaining the showers, and c) paying the water bill for thousands of people showering, not to mention every schmuck who comes unprepared and fills his water containers solely from the showers.  Lights would be required.... We're talking a serious expense here, and we as campers would be paying for it forever...

[dreamwalker]

I think we should start with the horse before cart. The maintence and costs issues  biggest issues with showers. And I 2nd on the thought of using a shower that could quickly have the poetential to rival the showers at a frat house.

That being said maintence and security for flushing toilets ( i.e. vandalisim issues mainly) will already be present. It will take constant watching, supervision & maintence to keep them from looking like 3rd rate truckstop bathrooms. Indoor bathrooms might make it more comfortable for parents to change their infants also, if fold down thingys were put it. Just a thought.

Ther also might need to be 2 of them, one for patron side one for particpants. Also realize the traffic they are going to get, esp. for the ladies side. Wold it be in ground lines or septic tank? Those get backed up very fast and the results are not pretty.

Also, since thee are season passes to the Faire why not season campground tags? It might save a little hassle of having that much cash in hand every weekend. They could clearly have the year on them (so you couldnt use an old one) and  have ones for patrons or particpants. 

[KeeperoftheBar]

Some people will not like this, but BAN GENERATORS (except for medical reasons).  One that ran all night every night near Phoenix Risen was so loud it drowned out Zaubon's alarm clock.

[xed]

Some people will not like this, but BAN GENERATORS (except for medical reasons). 

WOW, wouldn't that be AWESOME!
My party and I gleefully approve of this message.

[Strange]

I think we should start with the horse before cart. The maintence and costs issues  biggest issues with showers. And I 2nd on the thought of using a shower that could quickly have the poetential to rival the showers at a frat house.

That being said maintence and security for flushing toilets ( i.e. vandalisim issues mainly) will already be present. It will take constant watching, supervision & maintence to keep them from looking like 3rd rate truckstop bathrooms. Indoor bathrooms might make it more comfortable for parents to change their infants also, if fold down thingys were put it. Just a thought.

Ther also might need to be 2 of them, one for patron side one for particpants. Also realize the traffic they are going to get, esp. for the ladies side. Wold it be in ground lines or septic tank? Those get backed up very fast and the results are not pretty.

Also, since thee are season passes to the Faire why not season campground tags? It might save a little hassle of having that much cash in hand every weekend. They could clearly have the year on them (so you couldnt use an old one) and  have ones for patrons or particpants. 

Fortunately, participants are already fairly well covered.
There are parti showers, tho not nearly enough, and the hot water supply is an issue, but they always seem pretty well maintained.
Participants also already get a pass that gives us access to parti camping and the backstage for the season.
Then again, every participant gets a background check and is authorized by their employer, whether cast  or vendor.

I think for patron camping, depending on the construction, proper privies and/or showers could be maintained without too much difficulty.
It would definitely take some vigilance on the part of "good" campers to make it work, but it is entirely possible.
All of the regular onsite privies are basically concrete bunkers with stalls, and a couple of drains in the floor and hoses kept in cabinets.
Whenever there is a "problem" they just hose everything to the drains. More serious issues get proper chemical scrubs.

[eloquentXI]

Some people will not like this, but BAN GENERATORS (except for medical reasons).  One that ran all night every night near Phoenix Risen was so loud it drowned out Zaubon's alarm clock.

Maybe, have a generator curfew for the noisier ones?

Because banning them is not even a realistic idea.
There are many that aren't noisy at all and punishing many for the problem of few is not fair at all.
Older generators tend to be quite noisy, but the newer ones are not, such as Riot and Lerxt's. M
Many people cannot use their campers or anything else without that electricity.

[SirRichardBear]

Maybe something allong the lines of from row ten up no restrictions on generators,  from row ten down no generators allowed.  Using the old drum/bond fire circle as a break point would seem to make sense.   Should be pretty easy to put up signs on the road saying beyond this point there is a generator restriction.   Then clans/people can decide if they want to camp in an area that allows generators or not.

[xed]

Not a bad idea regarding generator/restriction areas..that would put a stop to the whining about a new regulation.  Also, loud/not loud is subjective; even people with outrageously loud generators will deny the sound if it means they'll have to turn off their precious electricity...

To put it frankly:  I feel like it's necessary to point out that this is still a camping experience.  Meaning you won't be in the lap of luxury the way that you would be at home.  Hotel rooms have flushing toilets, running water, hot showers, level surfaces, paved roads, etc., and you pay for all of it. 
We pay $20 to camp ALL WEEKEND.  The luxury changes that are being proposed would change that forever, probably to more like $20/night if not more (which would end it for me, and I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one).  I think that it is important to remember that we are still camping, 'roughing it' if you will.  Some of the luxuries that we all enjoy at home are absent in this environment.

Realistically, if those luxuries are a requirement for you, it is better to stay in a hotel or get an RV.  IMO, it makes no sense to go camping if being dirty is a problem.  I've said it before but it bears repeating: wet wipes, a bar of soap, and some extra water works wonders.  Liquor doesn't hurt either.

[SirRichardBear]

Not to get off topic much I have to say I agree with xed while I camp in a popup not a tent I don't have or bring a generator because I like having a weekend without all the electronics in my normal life.  I think having a break is a good comprise which doesn't cost anything but the cost of a few signs and still allows everyone now camping to camp with maybe just moving locations around a little.  I'd even be happly if just the new sub zero section was generator free since then most of the major clans wouldn't have to move.