Bodice styles that "support" without "squishing"?

[Sev]

Hello, all! My mother and I are at a loss right now, and I wonder if you lovely folks might have some ideas to throw at me. =)

I'm the seamstress in the house, which is both good and bad for my mom: She doesn't have to worry about any of the actual sewing, which is great for her... but she has to rely on my knowledge, which in this case might be horrible haha.

I made her an Italian working-woman dress last season which she LOVED, but there were two problems with it: 1. I admittedly made it too small somehow (I have NO idea how that happened lol, I took the muslin off her body, added seam allowance and used that, but anyway...) and 2. she has very sensitive, uh... "girls", and cannot stand to have much pressure put on them at all. (Why she didn't tell me this sooner, I don't know.)

Now, I am the kind of (perhaps odd) person who absolutely loves wearing snug garments -- I think it stems from the leotards and tights I wore when I was a ballerina years ago, but it's carried over to a love of corset-y, bodice-y things. That being the case, my understanding of most Renaissance-era-ish clothing is that most of it supported via snugness. I can't wrap my mind around any other way for it to work! Thus I am limited by myself. ):

Mum really wants to wear something period-ish, but... what style? Honestly, when she started explaining to me why she didn't want to wear the Italian dress again, my first thought was a well-cut underbust bodice with a shirt/chemise underneath that's held "taut" by the bodice so it offers SOME support, without being painful...? I've seen that sort of effect achieved, but I personally have never liked underbust bodices so I've never paid a whole lot of attention to them. (Heck, if we went the underbust route she might as well wear her favorite bra with it... it's just so far from what I consider "period" lol. But then my big concern would be combining a flattering cut in the bodice with the underwire... that just sounds so painful!)

I could make a second Italian working-woman dress, maybe, but cut the curved front a little more generous in the bust area? Some part of me says that would throw things off somehow, but maybe one of you ladies knows something I don't. =)

Advice, please? I'm just too used to making things to suit myself. ):

[Kate XXXXXX]

You are not going to get that flat fronted period look without squishing.  Anything that allows for less pressure on the bust is going to be shaped and more like a  Victorian era corset than one from the 17th C.

Victorian corsets squished the waist and supported the bust from underneath rather than squishing it.

[Lady Kathleen of Olmsted]

I am with Kate on this one.

What gives that period profile is actually the Corset that is under most Bodices. If your mother is unwilling to be  squished, I could recommend an Irish Dress idea where the bodice is well underlined in Canvas Duck(2 layers with boning channels worked in) with cable tie bonig, that laces up the front. That would provide comfort as well as support.

The Blue Venetian gown I am making for Lady Kett(see Projects in Progress) thread, is underlined with 2 layers of Canvas Duck, lined, and visible boning channels can be seen. I drafted the Bodice pattern from a Corset that laces in the front.

Hope this helps you.

[operafantomet]

Hello, all! My mother and I are at a loss right now, and I wonder if you lovely folks might have some ideas to throw at me. =)

I'm the seamstress in the house, which is both good and bad for my mom: She doesn't have to worry about any of the actual sewing, which is great for her... but she has to rely on my knowledge, which in this case might be horrible haha.

I made her an Italian working-woman dress last season which she LOVED, but there were two problems with it: 1. I admittedly made it too small somehow (I have NO idea how that happened lol, I took the muslin off her body, added seam allowance and used that, but anyway...) and 2. she has very sensitive, uh... "girls", and cannot stand to have much pressure put on them at all. (Why she didn't tell me this sooner, I don't know.)

Now, I am the kind of (perhaps odd) person who absolutely loves wearing snug garments -- I think it stems from the leotards and tights I wore when I was a ballerina years ago, but it's carried over to a love of corset-y, bodice-y things. That being the case, my understanding of most Renaissance-era-ish clothing is that most of it supported via snugness. I can't wrap my mind around any other way for it to work! Thus I am limited by myself. ):

Mum really wants to wear something period-ish, but... what style? Honestly, when she started explaining to me why she didn't want to wear the Italian dress again, my first thought was a well-cut underbust bodice with a shirt/chemise underneath that's held "taut" by the bodice so it offers SOME support, without being painful...? I've seen that sort of effect achieved, but I personally have never liked underbust bodices so I've never paid a whole lot of attention to them. (Heck, if we went the underbust route she might as well wear her favorite bra with it... it's just so far from what I consider "period" lol. But then my big concern would be combining a flattering cut in the bodice with the underwire... that just sounds so painful!)

I could make a second Italian working-woman dress, maybe, but cut the curved front a little more generous in the bust area? Some part of me says that would throw things off somehow, but maybe one of you ladies knows something I don't. =)

I'm an avid fan of hemp cording for "shapely" garments. The hemp stiffened fabric curves around the bust, without necessarily squishing it (it depends on your construction, of course). If you interline it with for example wool felt or padding as well, you'll get a smooth, lovely surface which doesn't reveal how supporting the construction is.

Jennifer Thompson has a good online guide for hemp cording:
http://www.festiveattyre.com/research/cording/cord.html

She used the technique for her ca. 1515 Florentine dress. As you can see, it curves wonderfully around the bust:
http://www.festiveattyre.com/gallery/florentine/earlyflor.html

I have used the technique for three different projects. One was for a dress in a similar style to that of Jennifer Thompson's, but in green and with blood red sleeves and trims. Another was for the wedding dress I made for my sister. She was 5 months pregnant, so obviously she had a bit of belly, and she was also sensitive around the bust. The hemp cording allowed me to make a bodice which more or less functioned as a bra, or an outer shell of sorts, and with the skirt falling gently from the "bra". This is the base of the bodice, just "hemped":




The outside got a layer of padding, and then a layer of silk on top. The finished result looked like this:




My point is not that you need to make the bodice exactly like that. My point is that when you make your mother a new bodice, you can try hemp cording to give the bodice some support. If you front curve the panels in center front, like you suggested above, you will also make it turn elegantly around the bust. I have no good examples at hand for female bodices, but I know several has used that technique with success. Pictures, people?

The hemp cording would also work wonderfully with early Italian "The Borgias" style, like these:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze1/ghirlandaio1486b.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia1/carpaccio1495b.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/roma/unknown15thcsaintvatican1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/siena/signorelli1505e.jpg

[amy]

Ok  compleltely off topic and admitting my laziness... But I want a hardwood floor so clean and lovely that I am willing to lay my sisters white satin wedding dress on the floor just for a picture.   With my dog that would have spelled disaster.     

Sorry.. had to throw that in.

[CenturiesSewing]

Another thought might be a modified curved front dress bodice, the support comes from the underbust and torso area. Gem made one, as did Silverstah.

A general demo on how to drape and fit one, http://www.mathildegirlgenius.com/DressFitting/DressDemo.htm

A bit labor intensive but you can get feedback as you go from your mum as to what feels ok or not.

As to the working class dress, is there anyway to salvage the project by adding another set of lacing somewhere?

[gem]

I wear a bra with LOTS of my bodices/gowns, including this one and this one. Usually it's for the sake of comfort, ease of dressing/changing, and practicality (honestly, going without is far more of a hassle, even when it's accurate and comfortable.). If your mum isn't going for strict 100% historical accuracy, then just make her something she can wear her bra with.

I accidentally made my hemp-corded Italian working-class dress (the one Centuries mentions above) too large, so I ended up having to wear a bra with it (grrr). You *really* can't tell; it's just a T-shirt bra there to hold everything in place comfortably. The hemp cord and curved-front opening is still doing its job of giving the proper support and smooth silhouette. It is WILDLY comfortable--supportive without binding.

If you're interested in a historical look, then stick to the eras and regions that celebrated a curvy figure. She doesn't have to go High Elizabethan to do Renaissance.

(If your mum has any oomph to her assets at all, an underbust style is definitely NOT what you/she wants. They're terribly unflattering for anyone with any size to her bust, not to mention uncomfortable.)

Have fun!!

[Cilean]

I am a triple D, I have a 42 measurement for my bra, and I use my PoB to hold me in, I do not use a bra in my garb.  I do the curved front for my bodices and I use steel in the front for my PoBs, I always add boning to my bodices for extra support. Also, when I am making my pattern from a mock-up, I take hours to do so, in essence, I spend a lot of time pulling the fabric, making it as taught as I can get, often I sew up the sides and then walk about doing work getting my sweat on, then adjusting once more, until I can no longer get any fabric from the effort.  Then I cut my pattern, from this, when I first put on my bodices they are very snug but then will ease out and my chest is supported without 'monoboob' issue. Also the back fat becomes a nice clean back as well.   For me, it is a cheat to use a bra, when getting your look, but that is my opinion! Typically when camping in the SCA I am working, cooking, lifting, sewing, etc.  As such I don't want my chest to move and I do need the support or I will be in pain, something I tend to avoid, so by creating my bodices, and my PoBs this way? I avoid all the un-needed crapola.

Just a hint! I use cable ties in the bodice and it really does help to keep the lines nice and pretty while giving extra support.

Cilean

[isabelladangelo]

Too bad I didn't see this thread sooner!  :-D

Yes, curved front.  It's period and it helps to support.   

My own doublet looks pretty horrible in the picture but it fits me almost perfectly.  The front is curved (hard to tell in the photo) and the cuts were based off a doublet in Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion. 

You also might want to look in the slightly earlier styles.   There is some evidence for "pockets" being cut into the bodice are for the bust line. 

[CecilsTanequin]

I actually had a situation this past summer where I wanted to participate with my (Elizabethan Court) cast but I had just had a lump excised from my right breast and couldn't corset or smoosh because of the healing incision. So I made a ladies doublet that was a bit too big for me otherwise but was stiffly lined with a double layer of canvas to give the right tubular shape. The too-big part gave my chest the extra room it needed to not be pressured The high neck of the doublet also helped mask that I wasn't properly smooshed. Now, admittedly I only have C cups and can get away with more than a bustier lady can. Don't know if this helps in your case or not, but I have to echo the others that the proper shape is nearly impossible to obtain without corset/proper smooshing. This is the only solution I have been able to find.

Here's me at full smooshing:


Here's me in a doublet with a corset underneath:


Here's me in a lady's doublet WITHOUT corset: