Possible project for next year

[Wickedvox]

Sooooo...I'm crazy, we all know that by now, right? I'm potentially planning for next year's garb an authentic h/a gypsy outfit, using *this* for my inspiration:

Here are my questions and observations:
1. Do you thing the blue fabric on her wrap is velvet? And her sleeve--brown velvet??
2. Of all the gypsy paintings I've seen, this one is the most ornate--do you think it's possible there were "upper class" gypsies?
3. I believe, from other paintings also, their outfits are very similar to peasant or middle-class English. The links Operafan and Isabella have posted led me to some *awesome* sources which I was able to magnify, and I DO believe some of them had pin on/tie on sleeves with bodices under their wraps. What say you?
4. More proof of adoption of English class--she's got *guards* on her skirt!!
5. Is it just my imagination, or does that wrap have gold fringe?!
6. Could I get away with microsuede for the wrap and sleeves?? I HATE (emphatically) sewing velvet.
7. *What* is that orange fabric with flowers?? Brocade??

So this is for all you pros--I want to pull this off--HELP!

[DonaCatalina]

Answers to some questions that I know from when Capt Marga helped my daughter with her Gypsy garb.

1. NO a gypsy might have a piece of velvet in their garb; but anything more than a fragment would have been assumed stolen.
2. NO. Gypsies were always considered to be tramps and thieves by the upper classes.
3. Gypsies (Rom) generally adapted to local dress somewhat. The shawl thing seems to be the ubiqitous gypsy garment for the Renaissance and Middle Ages.
4.Guards are actually practical for a woman who spends most of her day outdoors. The added bits of fabric cover up or replace dirty and worn hemlines.
5. Yellow fringe, or dusty tan. Saffron was used to dye a lot of fabrics. But a gypsy would not have been able to afford gold bullion fringe. That amount would roughly equal the yearly income of a village.
6.The original is probably linen or wool. Microsuede would probably make it unwearable very quickly.
7. the colorful drape at the top is a seperate piece of fabric folded like a pocket.
In Medieval and Renaissance times, Roma were known as Gypsies (in English) as a result of their proclaiming themselves to be penitents from Egypt. Their women adopted a style of dress which evolved during our period, but kept some elements throughout: (1) some sort of turban was worn (though the style of turban varied); and (2) a blanket, worn so that it fastened over one shoulder and passed under the opposite arm. The undergarments might change with time and place, but the draped blanket remained. Probably dresses were acquired in the towns through which the Roma traveled and, since the Roma may have obtained their clothing second hand, these gowns might be whatever the women of that area had worn years -- or a generation -- earlier. http://www.larsdatter.com/romani.htm

[isabelladangelo]

Although the sleeve does appear to be velvet, I'd say the drape is actually wool.   That dark blue was a popular color for the drape and you'll see it in a few other Gypsy painting.

Remember, ornate does not always equal class.  In this case, it is colorful but it looks to be colorful in the sense many middle class outfits were colorful - to the point of being completely ridiculous in the eyes of the upper class.

Yes, some of them have tie on sleeves and seem even wore regional dresses but not all.  It looks like her sleeves are some how tied to either a very wildly printed garment beneath the drape or to the drape itself.  The vast majority of the gypsies in period art wear a loose fitted chemise like gown (which was popular in Italy at the start of the 16th C for maternity clothing) over their chemise.  That is most likely what you are seeing here - the guarding is not a skirt but the bottom to the loose gown. 

Yes, it could be fringe but it also could be just gold trim. 

No, microsuede is plastic.   Use wool for the drape and, if you truly don't want to play with cotton velvet for the sleeves, go with uncut corduroy. 


The oddly colored fabrics on her shoulders are Indian printed linens and, maybe, cotton. Although this is later you can see the similarities between the fabric in the painting and this rather wild one. 

Hope that helps!  So glad you are doing this!

[Ser Niall]

The guys outfit is pretty interesting in that painting as well.  Are those slashed hose, and is he pulling the bottom part of the orange shirt through the slashes?

[Wickedvox]

Although the sleeve does appear to be velvet, I'd say the drape is actually wool.   That dark blue was a popular color for the drape and you'll see it in a few other Gypsy painting.

Remember, ornate does not always equal class.  In this case, it is colorful but it looks to be colorful in the sense many middle class outfits were colorful - to the point of being completely ridiculous in the eyes of the upper class.

Yes, some of them have tie on sleeves and seem even wore regional dresses but not all.  It looks like her sleeves are some how tied to either a very wildly printed garment beneath the drape or to the drape itself.  The vast majority of the gypsies in period art wear a loose fitted chemise like gown (which was popular in Italy at the start of the 16th C for maternity clothing) over their chemise.  That is most likely what you are seeing here - the guarding is not a skirt but the bottom to the loose gown. 

Yes, it could be fringe but it also could be just gold trim. 

No, microsuede is plastic.   Use wool for the drape and, if you truly don't want to play with cotton velvet for the sleeves, go with uncut corduroy. 


The oddly colored fabrics on her shoulders are Indian printed linens and, maybe, cotton. Although this is later you can see the similarities between the fabric in the painting and this rather wild one. 

Hope that helps!  So glad you are doing this!

Thank you both! Dona, I thought guards were more middle-class, never thought--duh!--more appropo to lowerclass d/t function. Thanks!

Isabella--your loose fitted chemise link is "FORBIDDEN!" Lol! I'd like to see it. From what I can extrapolate from what's going on up top, it seems to be a high-necked smock, and since it has attached sleeves, there's got to be a bodice, right? I can't tell if that kind-of diamond print-looking black & white edging is part of the blanket or if it runs down the shoulder of the *chemise* because it looks like it runs from the high neck to where the sleeve attaches, but *also* looks like it could be a trim on the side edge of the blanket. :/ The sleeve fabric looks so rich, I might interpret it with uncut corduroy. I agree with the blue wool too. And it seems I'll be looking for an orange calico type fabric. I'm stoked!

Ser Niall--It seems to me he's wearing boot hose *over* yellow nether hose (like slops but without the panes). It *is* very interesting, I've never seen them worn like that!

Does anyone think the man behind him may be a male gypsy, distracting the mark from the child picking his pocket?? I need to figure out how to dress my husband to be my counterpart and am seeing very few examples. I'm going to investigate the paintings more closely.

[isabelladangelo]

http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/habitus.htm

It's the last one on that page called a house dress - however, it's similar to what the Gypsies are wearing just minus the drape.   I doubt that the sleeves are attached to a bodice - they can be pinned to any fabric and often were. 

[Wickedvox]

http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/habitus.htm

It's the last one on that page called a house dress - however, it's similar to what the Gypsies are wearing just minus the drape.   I doubt that the sleeves are attached to a bodice - they can be pinned to any fabric and often were. 

Thank you! You know, that partlet-looking, tucked fabric *could* be what that piece is that I can't figure out what it is. The way it lays on the sleeve is similar to how her arm looks.

Many paintings I've seen *do* show the sleeve "falling" off the chemise sleeve, so maybe that's what's going on with them.

I think this could be what's going on under the blanket, but the bottom seems *awfully* "drape-y." Wood the sleeves be attached to this piece or separate? I've never done Italian Renaissance, so I wouldn't even know where to begin in making this :/ I may stick with the Elizabethan bodice and underskirt idea and make the sleeves simply for my own sanity of not having to learn a new region. I can rationalize it with the other paintings

[Rennigirl]

The guys outfit is pretty interesting in that painting as well.  Are those slashed hose, and is he pulling the bottom part of the orange shirt through the slashes?

It probably is not his shirt - think of how annoying that would be to move around and then have to pull the fabric through the slashes at almost ever single move.  I'd be dollars to donughts that it is attatched to the hose themselves - like a double layer of cloth, one of them made to pull through the slashes.

[Wickedvox]

So, check this out: I found this tapestry with a Roma couple in the front bottom left. The woman appears to be wearing a *kirtle* in a print fabric. Isabella, what is your interpretation? It appears to be Tudor era to me. A kirtle with attached sleeves and a high-necked smock underneath would explain the dress in the Spada painting.


Opinions?

[isabelladangelo]

There are examples of gypsies wearing the local outfits, however the tapestry in question is from a good 100 years earlier.  The gypsy dress didn't vary as much as the regional dress over that time.  Think of it as how we think of American Indian dress today - it doesn't change as quickly over time as European fashion does. 

Although this is an Italian example, you can see what looks like a chemise over an underdress - with a dress on top of that: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/bassano1540s.jpg

There are a few others in that example in the later part of the 16th C - a dress, a chemise looking garment, and another dress.  My guess is the gypsies just didn't wear the overdress.  They might have not bothered with the underdress either.   You can read a bit more here: http://buttery.org/marian/Gypsy_dress/drape_main.htm

Notice that the sleeve is in the original painting is gathered at the cuff and at the top with a bit of trim.  Also notice that the "tie" on the sleeve is the same colors as some sort of scarf around her neck.   You might want to look more into that and look at various styles contemporaneous to the painting and see if you find something similar.

[Wickedvox]

Yes! I *love* that woman's research paper--that's what I'll be basing my blanket from.

I see what you're saying, and I trust that you know better than I the time frame for that tapestry.

I believe there are multiple possible interpretations for what a Roma would've worn under their blanket, like you said, hand me downs are period I've found examples of sleeves matching bodices *and* skirts, sleeves matching skirts but not bodices, and completely mismatched outfits in a few different paintings. This one piqued my interest as it appears everything matches (you can see the skirt peeking out the bottom left side of her blanket):


But in the Spada painting, the sleeves seem obviously different material from the skirt, but of a similar color. I've never seen a sleeve with that kind--or *wide*--of trim at the top either, so it should be interesting to see how I butcher that particular piece lol! Also, her collar is throwing me a curve; I thought at first it was blackwork or embroidery, but the closer I look it almost appears to be some kind of applique like a wide ribbon trim  If I can't find something to replicate it, I'm going to have to hire someone to do that for me because I have very little embroidery experience and *no* blackwork experience.

Gah! I have to get this out of my head--school starts tomorrow!! 

[isabelladangelo]

http://www.sabercultural.com/template/pinacoteca/SalaGrena41.html

Scroll down for the bigger picture.   

[Wickedvox]

Holy cow that's a huge picture!! I *really* like the first painting ("Judith"), oh my goodness that outfit is gorgeous!
In the big piture ("Fundo Musicale?") I'm drawn to the woman in the right bottom corner--red kirtle, brown overskirt--love it! I like the examples of men's clothing too. It says 1810--that's late Colonial isn't it??

P.S. You're not helping me get this out of my head, you're enabling. 

[gem]

I can't figure out what the theme of that website is--quite a mix of things shown there! Judith is frequently shown in glorious fantasy-type garb (this is also a portrait of Judith, altho' why I cut her head off, I can't remember! And not Judith but Salome, but you can see a similar sort of over-the-top ensemble that doesn't seem to reflect actual fashion. The companion painting of Judith is posted in the Sleeve Eye Candy thread.)

For your Roma garb, I'd narrow things down by paying close attention to the era and region of the inspiration images--Caravaggio, for example, is 1600s Italian, and would be quite different than that 1400s tapestry.

[Wickedvox]

Wow, those are both quite racy for their time! 

Agreed, that's why I was leaning more towards Roma in England--I can do English peasant lol! But, as Isabella pointed out, the Spada painting is Italian (I think she's right about that under-dress) and I don't know if I'm up to learning a whole different region.  I can still do it, I'll just have to abandon a repro of the Spada gypsy, which I *really* don't want to do because it's *so* very pretty. I still feel the skirt could be interpreted as just a basic Ren skirt, but that sleeve scares the crap out of me; and I believe that chemise has a yoke with blackwork on it (along the top of the shoulder down to the sleeve), which I *really* can't do. And I'm convinced the outside of the collar is a completely different fabric, it's not embroidered, but I can't figure out *what* it's made of!! I'm driving myself crazy!

Focus. School.