Kent State Truth Tribunal

[Welsh Wench]

Forty years ago on May 1st, 1970--National Guardsmen fired 67 rounds over a period of 13 seconds, killing four students and wounding nine others, one of whom suffered permanent paralysis.
Some of the students who were shot had been protesting against the American invasion of Cambodia, which President Richard Nixon announced in a television address on April 30. Other students who were shot had been walking nearby or observing the protest from a distance.

A tribunal has been formed to get some answers.
Finally.

http://truthtribunal.org/about

I went to school with alot of kids who went there. Alison Krause had been in elementary school with alot of them before she moved.
Sandy Scheuer's cousin was in my class.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OmZvyNrzAs

What a waste of life.

[Captain Jack Wolfe]

I'm glad this tribunal has been formed.  Hopefully they'll get to the bottom of this senseless, shameful incident once and for all.

[Carl Heinz]

I think that it did get us out of Vietnam more quickly,  It provided a focus.

[LadyElizabeth]

This is really great to hear!!  I had friends who went to Kent State for college, it is still a very remembered event in Ohio history!!!  I truly hope the full truth comes out and people are healed by this very sad event!

[Welsh Wench]

I'm in contact with alot of friends that were actually there. The stories they tell are horrific.

The only thing I can say about the National Guard is that they were a bunch of scared kids too.
The blame lies with the leaders.
Starting with the nation's commander.  

[Noble Dreg]

...The only thing I can say about the National Guard is that they were a bunch of scared kids too...

Now that is indeed a great sentiment.  A lot of "victims" that day, some dead, some still living.

[Rapier Half-Wit]

I can't imagine living with the guilt and shame of following orders to shoot innocent kids. WW is right, the responsibility lies with the ones in charge that gave the order to fire.

[Carl Heinz]

I don't think anyone gave orders.  Ammunition should not have been issued in the first place.  Untrained troops plus panic equals disaster.

Back in my early days as a young troop, I was on the demonstration team at Ft Gordon's MP School.  We trained civilian law enforcement personnel.  We carried rifles at high port and used formations to divide demonstrators.  Issuing ammunition in such situations was not an option.  I suspect the National Guard personnel at Kent State had received no such training.

[KeeperoftheBar]

I agree that the training the Guardsmen received was not up to the task, but I disagree about the ammunition issue.  A weapon without ammunition is not even a good club.  An M-1 is better than an M-16 but still...
A friend of mine was involved in the evacuation of US civilians after the Shah of Iran was thrown out.  He helped protect the aircraft transports while they were loaded.  Imagine a circle of airmen with their M-16s looking fierce and not a clip of ammunition among them. Thank God the Revolutionaries didn't take advantage of the situation.

Wilkipedia has a good description of the events at Kent State.  Truely a tragedy for both sides.

[Welsh Wench]

Carl, there WAS an order to fire.

Terry Strubbe, a KSU communications student, pressed the record button on the reel-to-reel machine in his dorm room on May 4, 1970, capturing a chilling 30-minute audio account of the protest, including cries from students, 13 seconds of shooting and the chaos that followed.
After preserving the recording for the past 40 years, Strubbe and a friend, psychologist and occasional music producer Joe Bendo, plan to have it analyzed by a Los Angeles film archivist who will digitize the audio and reduce background noise in an effort to hear whether an order to fire is audible.


And here is a youtube recording of it--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mid-j9Ki49s&feature=PlayList&p=842EE6EDF4ABB1DC&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=19

I'd also like to thank everyone for keeping this discussion civil and intelligent.

[Butch]

They were not trained in measured responses to civil actions at that time.  Things have changed since then; that shows that the powers that be learned from this tragic mistake.  After Kent State, the National Guard began to be taught crowd/riot control tactics in the late 70s, and continue to be taught these tactics today.  The Marines are also taught less than lethal tactics in their MCMAP curriculum, which started around 2002.

I certainly hope the tribunal will be able to judge the actions of 40 years ago against the standards of 40 years ago, and not use the accepted ethos of today when condeming the actions of that incident.

By no means am I saying it was right; I'm saying it was a different time, and a different national mindset.

[Rapier Half-Wit]

I suppose that it's a very good thing that our military has been taught crowd control techniques.

Especially considering -

H.R. 5122 [109th]: John Warner National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2007

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h109-5122

This law grants the president authority to invade any state in the union that he decides to, turning the United States military on it's own citizens.



SEC. 1076. USE OF THE ARMED FORCES IN MAJOR PUBLIC EMERGENCIES.

(a) Use of the Armed Forces Authorized-

??
(1) IN GENERAL- Section 333 of title 10, United States Code, is amended to read as follows:



`Sec. 333. Major public emergencies; interference with State and Federal law
`(a) Use of Armed Forces in Major Public Emergencies- (1) The President may employ the armed forces, including the National Guard in Federal service, to--

`(A) restore public order and enforce the laws of the United States when, as a result of a natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition in any State or possession of the United States, the President determines that--

`(i) domestic violence has occurred to such an extent that the constituted authorities for of the State or possession are incapable of maintaining public order; and

??
`(ii) such violence results in a condition described in paragraph (2); or

??
`(B) suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy if such insurrection, violation, combination, or conspiracy results in a condition described in paragraph (2).




So I guess that means that we had all just better mind our P's and Q's.

[angusmacinnes]

Yeah Mister, pick that P up and Move that Q

LMAO

Sober comment will be kept private. 

[Carl Heinz]

Don't know how the phrase this delicately so-

If the order to fire came from someone authorized to give it, then that person should be liable.  If it came from one of the untrained troops, then that's panic.

We were giving riot control demonstration training at Ft Gordon starting around 1964.  Doctrine was being developed at that time.  As I said, the training was being given to civilian police.  I'm not aware that National Guard personnel were receiving that training while I was there (left for Vietnam in 1965).

The issuance of ammunition within the US for control of demonstrations was not doctrine.  Protection while evacuating civilians in Iran was a military action, not demonstration control.  Riot control for such things as the Watts riot also was a different matter.  We were using M-14's and I'd hate to encounter a butt stroke from one of these.  In one instance while I was at Ft Gordon, we had a platoon of Airborne MP trainees who decided to tear up their barracks.  The MP Support Platoon (the unit I was in) got called out to control the problem.  We were issued 45's without ammunition.  In one instance, one of them took off.  All I had to do was rack my 45 and he put on his brakes.  The threat of force and the ability to divide a large mass of demonstrators into smaller groups reduces the herd mentality.  When individual responsibility can be assigned, folks generally become much more mild.

Head shots with batons was also not doctrine.  A sharp hit on some one's butt can cause cramping sufficient to stop them without doing permanent damage.  However, this really isn't the forum for me to be discussing specific techniques.

Unfortunately, what happened at Kent State should not have happened.  I don't think it would have happened if the troops there had had adequate training.  It's rather grim, but I think it did save lives by reducing the length of our presence in Vietnam.

[Demetrius]

Don't know how the phrase this delicately so-

The threat of force and the ability to divide a large mass of demonstrators into smaller groups reduces the herd mentality. 

Interesting point...

Reduces in one, induces in another... it depends on your perspective- which, ultimately, is what this thread is all about. 

I can't believe it has been forty years. "Four dead in Ohio..."